>>Victor Cope: Another thing. You mentioned sweat lodges. One of our men in our church,
he used to go out to El Reno Prison, --
>>Dr. Joshua Nelson: Mmhmm.
>>Victor Cope: -- and he would go out there to minister. But because he was Native, it
was mostly Native men that came. There were some blacks and, you know, Caucasians that
would come, but it was mostly Native men. I went out there with him, you know, for about
a half a year.
>>Dr. Joshua Nelson: Mmhmm.
>>Victor Cope: And then another man came to our church, big white guy, booming voice,
cowboy, and he became one of our pastors. But he asked this this man to go with him.
The Indian men at El Reno just loved him, and they thought he was, you know, just the
best.
>>Dr. Joshua Nelson: Mmhmm.
>>Victor Cope: And he treated them with honor and respect and loved them and all that kind
of good stuff. But this man, they asked him, "Would you come and be part of our sweat lodge?"
>>Dr. Joshua Nelson: They asked the fellow from the church.
>>Victor Cope: The cowboy-looking guy.
>>Dr. Joshua Nelson: Uh-huh.
>>Victor Cope: Big booming voice, 6'3," 6'4," and they asked him, "Could you come to our
sweat lodge?" That was an honor --
>>Dr. Joshua Nelson: Mmhmm.
>>Victor Cope: -- for him to be asked. He comes and asks me. I says, "Well, let me ask
one of my my friends out west." And so I ask my friend, "Here's the problem. One of our
men that's going to El Reno has been asked to go to a sweat lodge. Is it right or is
it wrong?" He said, "Brother Victor, I'll give you an answer in about a week." This
man, he never gave you an answer like that [snaps fingers].
>>Dr. Joshua Nelson: Mmhmm.
>>Victor Cope: It was always "let me think about it, let me pray about it, and I'll give
you an answer." In a week, I call him up. I says, "Well, do you have an answer for me?"
He said, "Brother Victor, when has it ever been wrong for men to gather together and
pray?" Pretty good answer because there's nothing wrong with men gathering together
and pray whatever the venue may be, and that I told the man in our our church. He went
out there, took part, but he said, "I'm never doing that again." [Dr. Nelson laughs.] He
says, "Those Indians like that fire too hot."
>>Dr. Joshua Nelson: [still laughing] It does get hot in there.
>>Victor Cope: That's right.
>>Dr. Joshua Nelson: All right, that's well, that's a very interesting answer. And it sounds,
again, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it sounds to me like you're saying that
by slacking up a little bit on the kinds of restrictions that we've understood in the
past between Native and Christian traditions, we might find that Christian folks have better
success in telling people what they would like them to know.
>>Victor Cope: That's right. And the new model that drives our a lot of our evangelism, --
>>Dr. Joshua Nelson: Mmhmm.
>>Victor Cope: -- whether it be southern Baptist, whether it be Presbyterian, whatever—that
the new model is not to go to some place and destroy the culture.
>>Dr. Joshua Nelson: Mmhmm.
>>Victor Cope: And that our missionaries, and they they loved us, they wanted to give
us the very best. Our government, that was the intention of our government to try to
be able to give Indian people a good model to follow. And and and fortunately, it was
Christianity. Because if you're going to teach an Indian man to not kill somebody, that's
good. [Dr. Nelson laughs] If you teach an Indian man not to lie, that's good. If you
teach an Indian man to treat his family well, if you teach an Indian man that he needs to
be committed to one wife and not commit adultery, those are good things. And that the—our
people, they they they bought into Christianity. It may not have been for a lot of our Indian
people, they do not like it because it destroyed cultural ways.
>>Dr. Joshua Nelson: Mmhmm.
>>Victor Cope: The new model that is being practiced around the world today is that we
do not go in there and destroy their culture. We work within their culture. And that if
anything needs to be changed, you train those new Christians to be able to read that Bible,
that handbook that we have from God, and you teach them to be able to read that. And then
the aspect of the Holy Spirit will reveal to that individual Christian, whether they
be African, whether they be Native American, whether they be any other kind of grouping
on the face of this planet. That they through the power of the Holy Spirit will be able
to figure out what is right and what is wrong, and what they can do and what they can't do.
>>Dr. Joshua Nelson: Mmm. You say that's the new model.
>>Victor Cope: Yes.
>>Dr. Joshua Nelson: It sounds like you're saying that's the official--
>>Victor Cope: That's right. It is.
>>Dr. Joshua Nelson: --way of going about things now. Well, that's a that's a marked
shift.
>>Victor Cope: Yeah.