As you all know, we've been covering the debt ceiling negotiations and
also the vote on the end result of those negotiations.
Here to talk to us about his decision to vote against the debt ceiling bill is
Representative Ro Khanna, who's never afraid to have a difficult conversation.
Representative Khanna, thank you so much for joining us.
>> Thank you guys for having me back.
>> So I just wanna start off by asking you,
why did you vote against the debt ceiling bill?
>> Well, this was the Republicans taking the economy hostage.
Demanding that we have cuts on the most vulnerable,
cuts on the poor, cuts on students,
that we forsake climate goals by expediting the Mountain Valley Pipeline.
And I couldn't go along with that, especially when there were other options.
The treasury department could have just kept paying the bills.
General Powell wouldn't have refused to cash the treasury checks.
Or treasury could have issued more bonds not just by invoking the 14th Amendment,
but by saying they were constitutionally obligated to do so by past Congresses.
So this was a defining vote, in my view,
for progressives, and I stand by voting no.
>> So thank you for saying that and thank you for
validating the argument that we've been making on this show.
Because the idea, the hysteria and the panic that arises every
single time the debt ceiling situation comes up is infuriating.
Because I think if Joe Biden actually wanted to protect
spending on social programs.
If Joe Biden didn't actually really care much about appeasing someone like
Joe Manchin with the Mountain Valley Pipeline.
He would have just called the Republicans bluff and be, okay,
I'm not gonna negotiate with you guys.
Let's see what you actually do when the time comes to raise the debt ceiling.
They would have raised the debt ceiling.
They're not gonna let the global economy tank.
Especially since many members of Congress are invested in the stock market and
they don't wanna see their precious stock portfolios take a dip.
Am I wrong for stating that?
>> I don't think they would have allowed it to collapse.
Now look, I think the president didn't want some of these cuts, but the question
is not, what do you want, it's what are you willing to stand up and fight for?
And the reality is, I think he didn't play all his cards.
He could have told treasury, keep paying the bills.
We're constitutionally obligated to do so.
He could have told treasury to issue more bonds.
He could have said, is Jerome Powell literally going to not cash
treasury checks when treasury is paying the salaries,
including members of Congress and their staff?
I don't think it would have come to that.
Are the Republicans gonna sue in court?
And I think that at the end of the day,
either the courts would have upheld what Biden was gonna do.
Or the Republicans would have had tremendous pressure from their
Wall Street backers and others to fold and to come up with a better deal.
>> MM-hm.
>> Yeah, so I agree with you, 14th Amendment is crystal clear.
It literally has the exact sentence that our debt should not be questioned.
There's no dispute over it at all.
And I don't agree with you that Joe Biden didn't wanna make the cuts.
I think he definitely wanted to make the cuts.
I think he's a Republican on economic issues and
he's proven that a hundred times.
In fact, I'll ask a question about that.
So when it came to promises he made to progressives, $15 minimum wage,
voting rights, etc, he was never held to account.
He never carried them over after they were defeated.
But that pipeline that Joe Manchin wanted,
bill after bill after bill, they brought it back.
So doesn't that tell you Joe Biden is a conservative and
he definitely wanted to help the conservative fossil fuel industry.
But did not wanna help progressives because he never carried over any of
the other progressive policy positions.
>> I am genuinely perplexed by the Mountain Valley Pipeline.
There are times here that I've defended the president, but
this is not actually something that even Kevin McCarthy was pushing for.
McCarthy was pushing for a lot of cuts, but
the Mountain Valley Pipeline was a handout not to Kevin McCarthy, but to Joe Manchin.
I've been scratching my head why they would do something like this.
One of the reasons, I think,
is that they're fearful of the no labels group recruiting Joe Manchin into
a presidential race, and maybe they're trying to appease him.
But to me, that was a punch in the gut for climate activists around the country.
And I was very proud of the inflation reduction act.
I was in rooms with Joe Manchin on that.
It wasn't ideal, but it moved the ball forward.
But after that, to then have the Willow project, drilling in Alaska and
Mount Valley Pipeline.
And other progressives have been very direct with people at the White House
saying, you are really risking turning off climate activists and
we need them for 2024.
>> I know why he does it.
Cuz he takes money from fossil fuel companies, Joe Biden does.
I know why he does it.
He agrees with Joe Manchin.
He's always agreed with Joe Manchin his entire career.
It's not at all a mystery.
But let's go to progressives.
So you did the right thing, as you often do.
You voted no on this, what I view to be an atrocious and totally unnecessary bill.
But 66% of the Progressive Caucus didn't, that's 0.1.
And of the one third that actually voted the right way, voted no.
Pramila Jayapal, unfortunately for those folks, let the cat out of the bag and
pretty much said it.
>> This is according to an interview she had with David Dayen at
the American Prospect.
She said,
our strategy was to not give them one vote more than what they needed to pass.
Jayapal told the prospect in an interview last Friday with enough of a strong no
vote to make clear that it was not a good deal.
>> So, Representative Khanna,
doesn't that show that they released progressives to vote no.
But if they were needed, they would have come back and
Pramila Jayapal would have told most progressives to vote yes.
Cuz at the end of the day, they always get enough votes to pass any bill they want.
>> I think what Pramila was referring to there is that you had almost 100 new
Democrats who said that they were gonna vote for the bill.
But we had a whip operation led by Greg Kazar,
who did a very good job trying to persuade people to vote no.
And this was not an easy vote.
And you said, well,
why wasn't it an easy vote if everyone knew the bill was gonna pass?
And candidly, everyone knew the bill was gonna pass.
But when you have people on television 24/7, not you, but
other folks saying you have to be a grown up in the room.
And if you don't vote for this, you're not a grown up in the room and
you're really gonna put the country at default.
I'll tell you, all the folks who voted no, including me,
have gotten pushback from a fair number of people.
Because all they hear on mainstream media is that this was a good deal and
voting no was an extreme position.
And they've conflated the Progressive position with the Freedom Caucus position,
which is absolutely wrong.
So I do think it took some guts and I'm disappointed we didn't get more.
I was hoping we'd be in 70s of no votes.
>> Ro, look, I'll obviously give you credit for voting no, okay?
But, you have to understand there's two factions we're dealing with here, right?
We're dealing with the pro corporate faction that wants to pressure you into
voting yes on a bill that your constituents will absolutely hate.
Then there are your constituents, then there are Democratic voters.
Democratic voters who are actually woke in knowing exactly what the mainstream
Democratic Party is all about when it comes to economic issues.
And honestly, and increasingly, I am noticing that there is no difference
between corporate Republicans and corporate Democrats.
Democrats like to engage in the rhetoric and the discourse that makes it appear as
though they give a damn about ordinary people,
blue collar workers, just the little guy.
But then their actions, as soon as they get elected, tells me otherwise.
Now, there are some a handful of progressive lawmakers who actually mean
what they say when they campaign on these issues to help ordinary people.
But when you take a step back and you look at the bulk of the Democratic Party on
the substantive economic issues, there is no difference.
So my question to you is, what's more important,
appeasing corporate media types or actually looking out for the constituents
that you need to show up to the ballot to vote for you at the ballot box?
That's what I don't get.
And I personally am at a situation where I don't know where I belong.
I don't wanna vote for corporate Democrats anymore.
Why would I vote for corporate Democrats when I see no difference between them and
corporate Republicans on issues that actually have an impact on my
day to day life?
>> Obviously, doing good by and
right by the voters in the working class matters the most, not any media pundit.
And I thought we got off to a good start with the American Rescue Plan where we
had the $2,000 stimulus checks, where we had the child tax credit expansion.
Many of us, and you would remember this, Cenk, wanted to fight to overturn and
fire the parliamentarian.
I called to fire the parliamentarian to get $15 minimum wage.
If you ask me what is one of the biggest misses in the top two years we had,
we should have taken the wage up.
Even if we couldn't have gotten $15, we should have taken it up $10,
12 that would have been the biggest signal of fighting for the working class.
We should have fired that parliamentarian.
We should still fire the parliamentarian and try to get that passed.
But, I think we came up to this strong start.
Then we had other good policy with the, CHIPS Act, bringing manufacturing back,
the Inflation Reduction Act.
But you can't say, okay, we're doing this good work, and
now we're gonna take steps backwards.
And I have been very direct to some of the steps recently, the Willow Project,
Mountain Valley Pipeline, the non forgiving of the student loans.
The locking in that we can't extend the moratorium,
they've got to figure out a way around that.
If we stop the moratorium on student loans in September and
people have to pay again, that will be a political disaster that they're
gonna have to start repaying under Joe Biden.
So, we just need to keep pushing.
Now, I think the Democratic Party,
when influenced by Progressives, does the right thing.
But it will be a mistake if they ignore the Progressive positions on these issues
because I agree with you, the president's gonna need students.
He's gonna need working class folks.
He's gonna need climate activists to turn out to win.
>> Yeah, so look, there's good progressives in Congress and Greg Casar,
a new just Democrat, and
the fact that he whipped this vote against that ceiling, great, love it.
Ro, you're consistently the bravest legislator, constantly coming on to
actually have good, tough conversations about these issues.
But at the same time, we get frustrated that a lot of folks don't recognize what
you said a little bit earlier, but I'm gonna take it a little further,
which is about the mainstream media.
Look, if we're being honest, they're your main opponent because the minute you
guys fight for progressive policy positions,
they scream at the top of their lungs that you're the enemy.
And that you agree with the right-wing and you guys are secretly Republican and
you're trying to destroy Biden.
But they never say that of Manchin when he actually did.
He actually did destroy Biden's so called agenda, which of course,
Biden doesn't believe.
>> Biden rewarded him for it.
That's exactly what Biden did.
Biden rewarded him.
He completely destroyed Biden's agenda with build back better, right?
If that's the way I would see it if I were Biden and
I actually believed in that agenda.
And then Biden turned around and rewarded Manchin by ensuring
that that provision would be included in every bill until it finally passed.
>> Because Joe Biden is Joe Manchin.
Come on, get real.
But so Ro, as the media attacks you guys over and
over and over again whenever you try to be principled.
Is there a recognition in the Progressive Caucus, hey,
the mainstream media is not our friends.
They're the propaganda machine that is set to try to destroy all of us.
And you see it in primary after primary after primary,
let alone when the bills are on the line, they crush you guys.
Is there any recognition of that or are people still, yeah, CNN and
New York Times are my friend.
>> I think there's a recognition that they're praising this deal and
criticizing the Progressives have had consequences.
Consequences for me, look, I don't take PAC money or lobbyist money, but
I do take individual contributions.
And I've got to tell you, after mainstream media sort of criticized us, we
had people who had supported me reach out saying, I'm never gonna support him again.
And I'm sure other people had the same experience.
And the reality is when Progressives stand up for some of these issues,
they're not seen as quote, unquote, the adults in the room.
They're not seen as being willing to compromise.
And it has an impact.
Now, the challenge, I know you guys do your jobs, but the challenge for many of
us candidly, as Progressives, is we get criticized often in the mainstream media.
And then we get criticized by the left media-
>> Only when you guys are weak,
when you guys do good things, when you actually fight, we reward you for it.
We give positive reinforcement every time.
>> I don't want anybody to mistake what's going on here.
Ro voted no on the debt ceiling bill.
That is exactly the right way to vote.
And Ro, when you did and we talk about it,
credit where credit is due all the time, but you're not wrong, I get it.
There's a tax from all sides.
We get frustrated that you guys aren't pushing back enough.
The mainstream media is against you to begin with, right?
That's why I say you're so brave because you actually come on and
you do these interviews with both sides, which a lot of others don't.
>> I give our side a challenge too, in Congress, is that I think on the right
there is a better relationship between members of Congress and
the alternate media, and they go on more.
There's more of a dialogue.
And so, there is an alternative power structure to the mainstream
Republican Party on our side that doesn't exist.
I'd love for more members of Congress.
I don't need to be the only one to go on alternative media.
And I find, I think people are open to criticism.
No one is perfect.
But that ecosystem on our side does not exist.
And Cenk, you're absolutely right.
I think the reason Bernie Sanders isn't the nominee is because at the end of it,
after Nate Silver hit him at a 70% chance of winning, after Nevada.
70%, you would have 30 to 40 articles a day in the Washington Post or
New York Times saying why Bernie Sanders would be a disaster to be president.
That's a very hard thing for anyone to overcome.
>> So one final question for you,
because this has been something that I've been curious about for quite some time.
Anytime, let's say Donald Trump wants to use the bully pulpit to call out even
members of his own party on what he thinks is bad behavior or a slight against him.
That conflict gets a lot of media attention.
And what I wonder why the Progressive Caucus or let's just,
I know the entirety of the Progressive Caucus is not Progressive.
Let's just keep it real.
But the actual Progressives within the Progressive Caucus.
Why don't you guys regularly hold press conferences calling out
the corporatists in your party who are totally fine with
continuing the increases in defense spending.
While placing a cap on spending for social spending programs,
which of course, considering inflation is really a cut,
that is what the American public would love to learn about.
They'd love to hear from you guys about it.
And more importantly, it applies pressure to your Democratic colleagues who are in
cahoots with corporate Republicans.
Why don't you guys ever try that out?
>> We should, look, I think sometimes there's too much fear in speaking out
against our own party or own leadership.
I spoke out to have Dianne Feinstein step down in saying probably
one of the most obvious things, that she's simply unable to do the job.
There was a week of people saying, Rose is sexist.
He's an ageist.
And then you know what happened?
People saw that that was just propaganda.
And then there were a lot of articles saying, you know what?
Rose actually right.
And so, if you stand on the conviction that we shouldn't be raising the defense
budget while cutting food assistance from women in their 50s or vulnerable and
by the way, watch what they're gonna do.
They're gonna have supplemental military emergency spending to increase defense
even more.
And if we're not willing to call those things out,
then we lose credibility to the Progressives.
We call those things out.
I actually think we will start to win.
And you're right, sometimes when you call out your own party and
you're on the side of the people, you get media coverage for it.
And I have always been of the view that people in the Progressive Caucus, all of
us, need to be bolder in saying some of these things and that that's how you win.
>> All right, last question for me Ro, so look, Joe Biden is sometimes
pulling in the 30s incumbent in the 40s is near a guaranteed loss and
the 30s you can take out the near in that sentence.
So, the Democratic Party and
mainstream media have decided that they're gonna walk straight into that loss.
And that if anybody runs against them,
that's elected official that they are the real problem,
even though they're guaranteeing a loss probably to Donald Trump.
So, can we be honest and say that the corporate media and the corporate
Democrats are intimidating Progressives from running against Joe Biden?
When any logical evaluation of this screams out for
a Progressive challenge to Joe Biden?
>> Look, I think he's in the 40s Cenk, which is not great,
but I think it's gonna be an even fight.
I'm not saying that he's a Reagan in America or Clinton coasting to reelection.
I think there's gonna be a fight, and I think he's gotta go campaign.
I was in New Hampshire saying he's got a campaign in New Hampshire.
None of this I'm gonna skip these states.
Robert Kennedy, Mary Wright Williams said they're not to be ignored.
You've gotta make the case, and he can't.
And Cornell West coming in.
Cornell, I knew Cornell.
And Cornell and I were all over for Bernie Sanders.
Cornell is a very impressive speaker.
I would not ignore these things.
What I would do, and I said this directly to the president's people is he's gotta
come out with clear, bold policies for his Progressive coalition.
It starts, in my view, with the student loan issue.
They have gotta have this White House figure out how to put a pause on payments
in September.
You cannot have millions of students having to repay those loans come
September.
>> Yeah, they're not gonna do that.
Joe Biden decided when he got rid of Ron, claimed that he was gonna go right-wing.
He's done nothing but gone right-wing since then.
His polling has gone off a cliff since then, but he's never,
ever going to change on economic issues.
He's always for 50 straight years, he's been a right-winger.
So he's gonna right-wing himself right off that cliff, okay?
So, we'll enjoy that when that happens.
We won't, none of us will like it.
Ro Khanna consistently the bravest congressperson,
especially among the Progressives.
We really appreciate it.
Thank you for joining us for this honest conversation.
>> Thank you Cenk and thank you Ana.
Thank you for having me.