- Oh God, that's like, the most interesting question
that I've never even had to think about something
in reverse like that.
- Mental health burnout, especially on YouTube for creators
is absolutely a real phenomenon.
So I got one of the realist,
most authentic voices there are--
- Whoa!
- To talk about this exact subject.
Let's welcome Emma Chamberlain to the channel.
Bee whoop!
Welcome to the Dr. Mike channel, Emma.
I can't believe we're so lucky
to talk with you today.
The topic that I wanted to discuss
is something to do with how we as creators on YouTube
are often times looked at as people
who are ungrateful for their success.
I even heard the term YouTube crybaby be thrown around.
We tried making videos, I've watched your videos
talking about the anxieties that you deal with
on a day to day basis.
I have my own anxieties that I deal with.
My patients have their own anxieties.
But the ones that creators feel
are kind of unique and not well understood
by the general public.
Do you agree?
- I totally agree.
I think it's like--
Sorry, my cat is trying to get on the cat perch
and I propped my computer on the cat perch,
which is my bad.
Anyways, that is not a joke.
I would probably not understand or empathize with somebody
who is feeling how I'm feeling now,
if that makes sense.
- Sure.
- Before I started this.
Which, you know--
- What do you think changed there?
What in your perspective has shifted?
- I think, well, now that I'm in it,
I mean, now I'm like, there's just so many different things
that are stressful and upsetting and scary and whatever
that I don't even think people understand
or could even understand before it happens to you.
And of course, it comes with the great and amazing things
as well, but I think the struggles are weirdly
feelings that I would never have expected to feel.
Like, about how everybody's watching you,
and how you feel like you're constantly being analyzed
and stuff like that.
That creates this underlying anxiety constantly
that I never would have expected.
- That feeling of being judged constantly,
analyzed, that's a really good way to put it.
Do you think that has shifted your perspective the most
out of all the things that happen to YouTube creators?
- That's definitely a huge part of it.
I do also think,
when things happen to you that are crazy,
and you feel kind of numb to that,
I think that was another huge thing.
- That's so good.
- Yeah, that's a tough one and it sucks.
It does suck.
Because you wanna feel excited
or in sense you expect to feel like you're euphoric
about certain things.
And then when you don't, you're like, am I okay?
- So here's my thought.
Have you ever heard
of the principle of the hedonic treadmill?
- No.
- Okay, so the hedonic treadmill
is the principle in psychology
where by, no matter what level of extrinsic happiness,
things that are outside of your body,
what level of success you get there,
you will never feel completely happy and fulfilled.
Meaning that you initially want the Toyota,
then you want an Infiniti, then you want a BMW,
then you want a Lamborghini, then you want an antique car,
and there's a level of full satisfaction
that you get in your life.
Same thing happens with money,
same thing happens with fame.
All these things are okay
and they're good to strive for, they're good challenges,
but long term, that level of outside happiness
does not make you feel fulfilled.
YouTube, I think, functions as an evil personal trainer.
And this is a funny way to put it.
- Yes.
- That encourages you to go onto this hedonic treadmill
and never get off.
Because you get on, you want a million subscribers,
you get it, and instead of celebrating
your million subscribers and feeling fulfilled,
YouTube's like, no, no, no,
now you gotta get to two million,
three million, four million, five million.
And why?
Because I feel,
and please jump in and correct me if I'm wrong,
that unless you're growing on YouTube,
your channel's actively dying.
- 1,000%.
I think that it is every YouTuber's biggest fear
to either plateau or start to decline.
It's terrifying and I think that that's why
so many YouTubers are in this constant state of panic,
because it's like, everything can change in an instant
and if you're not keeping up with everything,
then you know, you're--
And I think a lot of YouTubers, their happiness
this is tied to how their channel is doing,
which is so sad.
And I've done it, I've done it before.
I feel like YouTube is so fast.
And so you don't have a chance to breathe.
You're just on this treadmill, you're sprinting,
constant sprint,
and I think that's why
people burn out so quickly, to be honest.
- We're forced by the algorithm to consistently innovate
everything we're doing day to day or week to week
with our videos.
And that type of pressure,
especially not on a giant company, on you and I,
just two people, is huge.
How can you expect for someone to not have control
over what makes them successful,
to constantly have to experiment, take risks
where they fail, and be happy?
Like, it's like a set up for failure
in a mental health capacity.
- I've learned over time how to have a separate life,
like have two separate lives
and I think that's really helped.
I know right now I'm a little bit burned out
and I don't have any idea.
I mean, especially because we're locked at home too.
- Has anyone ever assumed something about you
that you hated because on the outside it could be true,
but it wasn't?
- Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of people assume that--
Luckily, I've been very vocal about
the different mental health struggles I've had,
but I have had some people try to say
that I have not struggled with mental health.
And that was all just a lie or whatever.
Because again, how could you be unhappy,
how could be lonely?
I also think a lot of people assume
that I have a larger social circle than I have,
when in reality, I'm quite isolated.
And I don't have a large social circle,
and I spend a lot of time by myself.
And people again, assume well, you know,
she has a lot of friends, and she's happy all the time,
she can't complain about anything.
But in fact, neither of those things are true.
(Mike laughs)
I think discrediting anybody's mental health
or whatever, no matter if they're Selena Gomez
or they're the person sitting next to you
in your math class, you just can't do that.
Because every human struggles with it,
and so that made me angry.
- Yeah, there's a lot of irony
in what you're talking about, that even right now,
we're talking in front of millions of people,
or when you make a video,
you're talking to millions of people,
but you're really talking to yourself.
- Yes.
- And that gets lonely,
despite the fact on the outside,
it looks like you're having a conversation
with so many people.
- Right.
It is really lonely.
Because I mean, it is one thing to read comments
and do that whole thing,
but at the same time,
that's not a human connection
where you can hug the person,
or you get to actually have a conversation with the person.
And luckily, sometimes that happens.
You're out and about,
you see somebody who watches your videos,
that can be a really awesome experience
and kind of makes that more personal,
but on a day to day basis,
it's just me and a computer and my two friends
and my parents.
- It's like an ironic cycle
that we've become a part of, this vicious cycle of where
you think you're talking to more and more people,
but you're really disconnected from more and more people,
because while you can talk to millions,
you can't have an individual conversation.
When someone writes something negative to you,
whether that critique is accurate or not,
the fact that you can't talk back to that one person
is another step where you're losing control.
And a loss of control for any human,
I don't care who you are, is painful and anxiety provoking.
Do you think you're ever pressured to be happy
to enjoy success when you might not even feel that way?
Like, are you forced to put on a smile?
- I think, for sure.
I don't ever wanna be the vibe killer,
you know what I mean?
I never wanna be the one that's being negative
or whatever, which is ironic,
'cause I tend to be self-deprecating on my channel,
but it's always in good fun, you know?
I don't know.
I do feel pressured to be happy all the time,
because I feel like, people don't wanna be around
or don't wanna watch somebody who's down in the dumps
a little bit.
And so it's tough,
because that's, I think, a big reason
why I do isolate myself.
I only wanna be around people or be on the internet
when I'm in a good place.
And so sometimes I disappear out of my friendships
or off the internet for a little bit,
and everybody's like, where did she go?
And it's just because I don't like putting a side of me out
that I'm not super proud of.
And I'd rather kind of deal with that on my own.
- Which is fair.
Which is fair, right?
Not everything deserves to be shared on social media.
And one of your comments in some of your videos
that I've watched that you're repeated is,
YouTube is sort of a form of therapy for you.
So take me through that,
because on one hand, you say here in this answer,
that you don't like showing the negative side of you,
but you're also a very honest person on social media
and you use it as a place to vent
and work through your troubles.
How do you have both of those happening simultaneously?
- Well, YouTube being like a therapy for me,
I feel like it's interesting because--
It started like that especially,
because in the beginning I was going through
a lot of different mental health struggles
and I was in school, and the whole thing was really toxic.
And so having like almost an extracurricular activity for me
was a huge help.
And then as this has kind of become my whole life,
I think when I'm struggling with things in my personal life,
like let's say I'm having issues with my friendships
or something and it's upsetting me,
getting to work, and making a video,
and putting everything into that,
that's kind of therapeutic.
But then at the same time,
YouTube can be a reason why I need to go to therapy,
so I don't know.
- I think what you're describing,
correct me if I'm wrong,
is it's called flow.
And there's actually a book called, "Flow".
And in general, we as humans,
we have reasons why we do things.
For example, we go to work
so we can feed ourselves, survive.
If we're putting a lot of effort into the way we dress
or attracted to a partner,
it's because we wanna reproduce.
Right, there's these human drives
and there's all sorts of them that drive us.
There are some things that we do that make no sense.
For example, why put all the physical effort
to climb a mountain just to come back down?
And it's this state of flow that you're in
that is just so inside, intrinsically fulfilling and happy
that it doesn't matter if you don't get a prize
to get on the top of the mountain.
So initially, you were doing YouTube
to enter this state of flow,
and now that YouTube has become your job
and now you're using it for not just flow,
you're doing it for a paycheck and growing
and all these other things,
it's sort of changing your dynamic
with how you interact with the platform.
- Totally.
I was always afraid of it becoming--
I was like, I don't wanna do this as a job.
You know?
I was like, that is just so--
I don't wanna put it like that.
I don't wanna talk about it like that.
But it has become that.
I think the most important thing for me since day one
was I wanna make sure that I'd be doing it regardless.
And I try to keep that in my head.
I'm like, if all the success, in a sense, went away
would I still be doing it?
And that kind of keeps me in check,
you know what I mean?
Because I don't wanna look it as a job in my mind.
Is it?
I guess, technically yes,
but when I look at it like that, it's not--
This is a good way to put it,
when I'm filming, I can't be thinking about
the fact that it's my job.
It has to be like, oh, I'm doing this for fun,
'cause I think it'd be fun, you know?
- When does being a YouTuber feel good for you?
- There's a lot of times actually.
I think when I create a video
that I'm really, really proud of,
and that I think is really good.
That's an amazing feeling.
And also when I'm out and about
and I meet people that watch my videos
and we get to have a connection in real life.
That's amazing as well.
And those are the two biggest gifts for me.
- To flip that, when does it feel bad?
- It feels bad when I create a video
that I'm not as proud of.
And you know, I put it out,
because it's like, once a video's done,
even if you don't like it,
my dad always told me, just post it anyway,
and then move on to the next week,
you know what I mean?
But don't like just scrap it,
'cause somebody might actually like it.
But regardless, when I don't like a video,
I feel not good when I post it,
and then I'm just not proud of it.
And that's the worst thing ever.
And obviously when people hate on me, make fun of me,
or when there's things with my privacy,
or my privacy's kind of not being respected,
that can also make things terrible.
- What content are you most proud of?
- It's so random.
It'll be a random video.
It won't even be a specific thing,
but I feel like there's certain videos
that I just like the whole--
Like, I like the mood I was in that day,
mixed with like, I like the editing in it specifically,
and I like the concept.
It will all kind of like, come together.
I don't even have an example.
I feel like the last video that I made that I really liked
was I liked my birthday video,
I made one on my birthday
where I had a birthday party on Omegle.
- [Mike] Oh, nice.
- And so that was funny to me.
And I liked making it.
Well, I didn't love making it, 'cause Omegle's scary.
(Mike laughs)
But afterwards, when I watched it,
I enjoyed watching the video
and I watched it three times,
and that's how I know that it's something I like.
- Last question, if you had to change one thing
in your YouTube journey,
what's the one thing you'd change?
I'm giving you a magic wand, change it right now.
- Oh my god, in my YouTube journey?
- Yeah.
You're the new Avenger, what do you change?
- You know, the thing is, I always have been
the type of person that I do not believe
in regretting things or changing things
or wishing that something was different,
but I wish I could put a little thought
into my younger mind,
and tell myself not to put so much pressure
on every single, individual video that I create.
Because it's a bigger picture, you know?
And I'm never gonna understand what it's like
being on the other side of the screen.
I'm never gonna know what the viewer is thinking about me,
and that's something, I still to this day,
will never understand.
I don't know why people watch my videos, to be honest,
because I don't wanna watch my own videos,
but I've kind of come to terms with that now.
And it used to drive me insane.
I wish that I could tell myself,
number one, each individual video
you don't need to torture yourself
making every single video so perfect.
I mean, do that, and work as hard as you can,
but don't let it ruin your personal life, you know?
Don't let it ruin your self-esteem.
Because it would ruin my self-esteem,
because I was like, this video's not perfect
and it would mess up my view of myself.
I just wish I could go back and be like,
maybe don't do that, because that's really unnecessary,
and your video's gonna be equally as good
whether your torturing yourself or not.
So maybe just don't do that.
- Look, essentially you're giving advise
to future creators so they don't repeat those same mistakes
and that's really valuable.
This is sort of a pivot on that question,
and something in a way, that most people wouldn't answer
it this way,
but is there anything good that's happened to you
that you'd like to change?
- Anything good that's happened to me?
- 'Cause everyone thinks about changing the bad
or the mistakes that they've made.
Anything that happened positive that you're like,
if that didn't happen,
I wouldn't have to work a little harder,
or something would've been different.
Anything like that?
You can totally say no,
but maybe there's something that you can think of.
- Interesting.
Interesting.
Like, there's nothing I can think of,
because I feel like all of the good things
that have happened have been the reason why
I've been able to keep going
and push through the hard parts.
Because I do forget sometimes how hard
that hard parts really were,
and I know my parents are always here to be like,
you struggled.
'Cause sometimes I'm like,
I don't feel like I even struggled at all,
but then my parents are like,
how about all of these times that you were freaking out
and you were completely miserable over whatever,
and they remind me.
And then when I think about it, it's true.
I had some really tough phases throughout this
and I think the good things that have happened to me
have pulled me out of all of it
in a way that was crucial for me to keep going.
- Emma, you're an absolute rockstar,
I have to tell you that.
I have to congratulate on all of your success.
- Thank you.
- Someone who is handling this situation that you're in
quite well.
And I hope you stay safe during quarantine.
- You too.
We can do this.
- (laughs) Awesome.
- Thank you for having me, that was awesome.
- All right, thanks, Emma, be safe.
Gabbie Hanna and I also talked about mental health,
so click here for that video.
Or if you're feeling down yourself
and you need to recharge, click this one right here.
And as always, stay happy and healthy.
Which one you clicking?
(light jazz music)