>> There were several mass
shootings across the country
over Easter weekend.
Leaving many to question yet
again about what can be done to
curb worsening gun violence in
America.
William brangham has our
conversation.
>> Judy, this weekend, two
children were killed and eight
others wounded in pittsburg,
after a shooting broke out at a
party.
In South Carolina, two mass
shootings happened just hours
apart, one at a shopping mall,
and another at
a restaurant. More than
20 people were injured.
That makes at least 146 mass
shootings where four or more
people are shot so far this
year.
For more on what can be done to
prevent these tragedies, I'm
joined by mark Follman. He's
long covered this country's
epidemic of gun violence, and is
now out with a new book, trigger
points: Inside the mission to
stop mass shootings in America
these shootings are not what we
typically think of as mass
shootings.
These are gatherings where
there's a lot of armed people
and things interrupt.
These are typically difficult to
disrupt.
>> We tend to think -- think of
these on monolithic terms.
Certainly in in highly
politicized terms in our
country, but this is a complex
problem. There. Are versions of
it. And what we saw with this
spate of violence over the
weekend is sort of one version
of it, which is more kind of
reactive in nature where you
have groups of people kind of
getting into heated fights and
then and then turning to guns.
That's different than some of
the other public mass shootings
that are so high profile and
traumatizing that we keep seeing
in the country as well.
>> It also seems that the ready
supply of guns not just makes
these types of beefs to use that
term more deadly, but they also
seem to fuel them in the sense
that if I think everyone is
armed, then I then convince
myself I need to be armed and
thus, guns is how we settle
things. I mean, is there any
evidence to how we disrupt that
particular cycle?
>> I think it's difficult and
we're experiencing a surge in
this now. A lot of people have
been asking the question why, I
think you know, if we look at
the increasing kind of political
volatility and rage and
polarization going on in the
country, all the stresses from
the pandemic of the past couple
of years, and there's been
record gun buying as well. We
have an estimated 4 million
firearms in this country now.
Easily accessible in many
places, this issue with ghost
guns that's been at the
forefront recently. So all of
this together, I think makes it
very difficult to solve these
kinds of explosive sort of
reactive events that we're
seeing a spate of now,
>> Your book trigger points,
zeroes in on what we think of as
the more archetypal type mass
shootings like at Virginia tech,
young man kills 30 something
people clearly a disturbed young
person. You argue in the book
that we have all sorts of myths
that we've built up around these
types of shootings. What are
those myths?
>> Well, there are a couple of
really big ones that I think
fundamentally misunderstand the
problem of mass shootings, in
terms of how the general public
perceives them, one of them is
that all this is should be
blamed on mental illness that
all of the perpetrators of these
attacks are crazy, and they just
snap that's a term we use a lot
in the media there. The question
is often asked in the aftermath,
what made the guy snap that's
not how these cases work. When
you study the research into
these attacks, as I have for
trigger points and and the field
of prevention work that I focus
on in the book, you can see that
all of these are planned
attacks. This is predatory
violence. So it's distinct from
what we were talking about
earlier, which is more reactive
in nature. These are people who
are developing violent ideas
over time, taking steps to plan
and prepare and then carrying
out the attack. So that's a
different issue a different
problem with different possible
solutions, and some potentially
very promising ones in terms of
a window of opportunity to step
in and try to prevent it to
intervene before it's too late.
>> It does seem like if there
are these warning signs along
the way that stepping in in that
moment is the key to this. But
there are seemingly so many
obstacles to that. I mean, our
gun laws, our privacy laws, the
the correct fear of stigmatizing
mental illness. Are there good
solutions to addressing that? Do
we do a good job of intervening?
>> I think we could certainly do
more. And the focus of my book
trigger points is on the field
of behavioral threat assessment,
which I think does have some
real promise here. There's more
of it going on in the country.
Now. It's a collaborative effort
between mental health experts,
law enforcement, education
leaders, people in the workplace
and others who are working
together to try to evaluate
cases of concern, and then step
in and prevent people from going
down with the field calls this
pathway to violence, which is
the planning of these kinds of
attacks we're discussing. And
there are quite a few successful
examples of where this is work.
I write about them in the book,
I was able to gain access to
cases where constructive
prevention measures, getting
people mental health help
getting them educational, or
employment support over time can
really divert an individual away
from violent thinking of this
nature.
>> In our current political
environment, the refrain that
always follows is common sense
gun control, magazine capacity
limits, red flag laws, waiting
periods, etc, etc. Does your
research indicate that those
things would have a meaningful
impact on gun violence in
America?
>> I think they can. I think
there's some strong evidence,
more state and local level that
some of these policies are very
effective. One that you
mentioned, the so called red
flag laws is a tool that has
grown a lot in the past few
years, and intersects very
directly with the work of threat
assessment, this form of
community based prevention,
because you're talking about
addressing specific cases where
people are raising serious
concerns that they are posing a
danger to themselves or others.
And in that case, the question
becomes, should this person have
access to a firearm and so these
laws now provide a tool where
family members and in some
cases, law enforcement can go to
a judge and have a court
proceeding to determine whether
or not to take that firearm
away? We're always asking the
question, you know what, how did
a person like this mass shooter
after the latest one, get a hold
of a gun? How do we keep guns
out of the hands of people who
do this? Well this is one tool
and it's been growing.
>> Alright, journalist mark
Fuhrman, the book is called
trigger points. Thank you so
much for being here.
>> My pleasure. Thank you for
having me.