MARIA: WELCOME BACK.
THE LEADERS OF CHINA AND RUSSIA
SAY THEY ARE MORE DETERMINED TO
BOOST COOPERATION AND BUILD A,
QUOTE, NEW WORLD ORDER.
THE TWO COUNTRIES MEETING
YESTERDAY WHERE THEY CONDEMNED
THE, QUOTE, ILLEGAL AND COUNTER
PRODUCTIVE WESTERN SANCTIONS
IMPOSED ON RUSSIA FOR ITS
INVASION OF UKRAINE.
JOINING ME NOW IS COMMITTEE FOR
FREEDOM IN HONG KONG PRESIDENT,
FORMER SOUTH CHINA MORNING
POSTED TORE IN CHIEF AND THE
AUTHOR OF TODAY HONG KONG,
TOMORROW THE WORLD.
MARK CLIFFORD IS HERE.
MARK, GREAT TO SEE YOU.
THANKS VERY MUCH FOR BEING HERE.
YOU ALSO RAN THE ASIAN BUSINESS
COUNSEL AND WERE ON THE NEXT
DIGITAL AND APPLE DAILY BOARD
AND HAVE BEEN KNOWN AS A FRIEND
OF JIMMY LAI WHO HAS BEEN ON
THIS PROGRAM.
GIVE US YOUR TAKE ON THE CHINA
RELATIONSHIP AND PARTNERSHIP
THAT SEEMS TO BE INCREASING WITH
RUSSIA AND THE FOREIGN
MINISTERS.
>> WELL, THANKS, MARIA.
GREAT TO BE HERE AND THIS IS A
VERY DANGEROUS FRIENDSHIP.
YOU’VE GOT A BROMANCE GOING
BETWEEN THE TWO MOST DANGEROUS
GUYS IN THE WORLD AND THE
MEETING YESTERDAY YOU TALKED
ABOUT WITH THE RUSSIAN FOREIGN
MINISTER, CHINESE FOREIGN
MINISTER DAYTONA DAYTONA DEEPENE
RELATIONSHIP.
THESE ARE TWO DANGEROUS DUPES DU
WHO ARE DEEPENING THEIR
RELATIONSHIP.
CHINA DOESN’T WANT TO BE
COMPLETELY TRANSPARENT WITH
THEIR SUPPORT OF RUSSIA.
IF CHINA WEREN’T SUPPORTING
RUSSIA, THE WAR IN UKRAINE WOULD
BE OVER A LOT QUICKER.
MARIA: WHAT DO YOU THINK THE
FATE OF RUSSIA IS, NOW THAT XI
JINPING SEEMS TO BE THE PARTNER
TO VLADIMIR PUTIN.
I MEAN, WE’VE SEEN CHINA AND ITS
EFFORTS BEFORE IN TERMS OF
MOVING INTO DIFFERENT COUNTRIES
AND LENDING MONEY, LENDING
SUPPORT AND THEN AT THE END OF
THE DAY THE INABILITY OF THOSE
COUNTRIES TO PAY BACK MEANS THAT
CHINA TAKES OVER.
>> YEAH.
WELL, LOOK, IT’S THE -- YOU
CAN’T REALLY CALL RUSSIA A
CLIENT STATE OF CHINA BUT
RUSSIA’S -- IT’S A BIG GAS
STATION WITH AN ARMY AND IT
WOULD NOT BE IN THE POSITION
IT’S IN IF CHINA WEREN’T
COMMITTING TO BUYING LOTS OF
ENERGY AT KNOCKED DOWN PRICES,
NO DOUBT, IF CHINA WEREN’T
ALLOWING RUSSIA TO MOVE TROOPS
OUT OF THE EAST AND INTO THE
WEST AND, YOU KNOW, LOOK, THIS
IS A SERIOUS PARTNERSHIP.
CHINA WANTS TO KEEP THE U.S. OFF
BALANCE.
IT’S USED A LOT OF THE 20 YEARS
SINCE 9/11 AND THE WTO, THE
SUCCESSION OF CHINA INTO THE WTO
TO KEEP BUILDING AWAY WHILE THE
U.S. WAS DISTRACTED IN
AFGHANISTAN AND IN THE MIDDLE
EAST.
AND I THINK UKRAINE -- I DON’T
THINK THIS IS PLAYING OUT QUITE
THE WAY CHINA WOULD HAVE LIKED
BUT IT’S A NICE DISTRACTION FOR
THE U.S.
MARIA: YEAH.
WELL, WHAT DO YOU THINK THE U.S.
NEEDS TO UNDERSTAND BETTER ABOUT
CHINA AND THE CHINESE COMMUNIST
PARTY IN PARTICULAR?
YOU WERE THERE WATCHING THE CCP
MARCH INTO HONG KONG, THROW
FREEDOM FIGHTERS IN JAIL.
WHAT DOES THE U.S. NEED TO DO TO
HOLD CHINA TO ACCOUNT?
YOU’VE GOT THE SECURITIES AND
EXCHANGE COMMISSION CHAIRMAN
GARY GENSLER CASTING DOUBT THAT
A DEAL IS IN THE WORKS TO KEEP
200 CHINESE STOCKS FROM LOSING
THEIR U.S. LISTING.
GENSLER SAID IT’S UP TO CHINESE
AUTHORITIES AND IT COULD BE A
HARD SET OF CHOICES.
>> I THINK THE U.S. NEEDS TO
DROP ITS ALLUSIONS.
I THINK THERE’S HOPE BY SOME
PEOPLE IN THIS ADMINISTRATION
THAT CHINA CAN BE A HELPFUL
PARTNER WITH THE U.S. AND CAN
HELP US ON WHETHER IT’S CLIMATE
CHANGE OR NORTH KOREA OR OTHER
ISSUES AND THIS ISN’T HAPPENING.
I MEAN, CHINA IS VERY MUCH
PURSUING ITS OWN INTERESTS AND
THOSE INTERESTS ARE TO DISPLACE
THE U.S.
IT’S VERY CLEAR THAT THE CHINESE
WANT TO DRIVE THE U.S. OUT OF
THE PACIFIC AND EVENTUALLY BE
ABLE TO BUILD A NEW WORLD ORDER
AS YOU SAID.
MARIA: I JUST HOPE INVESTORS
UNDERSTAND THAT WHEN THEY’RE
BUYING THESE CHINESE STOCKS,
THEY ARE IN EFFECT FUNDING THE
EXPANSION OF THE CCP, ALL OF
THESE CHINESE COMPANIES ARE
LINKED TO THE CCP AND THEY HAVE
A GOAL OF OVERTAKING THE UNITED
STATES AS THE NUMBER ONE SUPER
YOU POWER SO THE U.S. HAS THESE
CHINESE STOCKS LISTED ON OUR
EXCHANGES EVEN THOUGH THEY DON’T
FOLLOW THE AUDITING RULES.
MARK, YOU HAVE AN OP-ED IN THE
WASHINGTON POST TITLED THE
BRAZEN ALARMING SCALE OF CHINA’S
EFFORTS TO SILENCE DISSIDENCE
ABROAD, YOU TALK ABOUT CHINESE
SECRET POLICE TARGETING PEOPLE
IN AMERICA.
THEY WRITE TODAY IT’S THEM BUT
TOMORROW IT WILL BE ALL OF US.
WE HAD JIMMY LAI ON THIS
PROGRAM, THE LAST INTERVIEW HE
DID BEFORE THE CCP PUT HIM IN
JAIL.
HE WAS ARRESTED.
HE WAS CHARGED WITH VIOLATING
THE HONG KONG NATIONAL SECURITY
RULES.
HERE’S JIMMY LAI BACK IN 2020
WHEN HE GRANTED ME THAT FINAL
INTERVIEW BEFORE THEY TOOK HIM
AWAY.
WATCH.
>> YEAH, NOW THEY CAN DRUM UP
ANY OFFENSE AS CRIMES AND
INTIMIDATION IS VERY ENORMOUS
SO, YOU KNOW, ON THE STREET IT’S
VERY QUIET.
IT’S THE SILENCE OF SUFFOCATION AND ALSO IN THE LEGISLATIVE
AND ALSO IN THE LEGISLATIVE
COUNCIL BECAUSE THE LEDGE SLAY
TORES, ALL THE -- LEGISLATORS,
ALL THE PRO DEMOCRATIC
LEGISLATORS RESIGNED EN MASSE.
WE WILL NOT HAVE A VOICE OR ANY
FIGHT IN THE LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL
OR ANY DEMONSTRATION IN THE
STREET.
SO, YOU KNOW, I’M AFRAID, HONG
KONG, IF WE HAVE NO NEWS, THE
WORLD WILL FORGET US.
MARIA: WE’RE NOT FORGETTING,
JIMMY.
HAVE YOU SPOKEN WITH JIMMY LAI.
I KNOW HE’S IN PRISON IN HONG
KONG, MARK.
>> YEAH.
I HAVE NOT SPOKEN WITH HIM
BECAUSE OF CONCERNS ABOUT THE
NATIONAL SECURITY LAW.
I DON’T WANT TO MAKE HIS LIFE
EVEN MORE MISERABLE.
I DO KNOW THAT HE’S IN SOLITARY
CONFINEMENT IN A MAXIMUM
SECURITY PRISON.
THIS IS A GUY IN HIS 70s, A
DEVOUT ROMAN CATHOLIC, A MAN OF
NONVIOLENCE.
NOW WITH COVID, HE AND OTHER
PRISONERS HAVEN’T BEEN ABLE TO
SEE THEIR FAMILIES FOR ABOUT TWO
MONTHS.
WE DON’T KNOW WHAT THE
CONDITIONS ARE.
BUT THE DEATH RATE FROM COVID IN
HONG KONG IS EXTREMELY HIGH IN
THE LAST COUPLE MONTHS AND SO WE
DON’T KNOW WHAT’S GOING ON.
IT’S VERY CONCERNING AND I’M
SURE JIMMY WOULD WANT ME TO GIVE
YOU HIS THAN THANKS FOR NOT
FORGETTING HIM AND NOT
FORGETTING HONG KONG.
MARIA: REAL QUICK BEFORE YOU
GO, WHAT IS THE CCP ACTION WHEN
THEY SUSPECT SOMEBODY IS HELPING
FREEDOM FIGHTERS, THEY SEND THE
POLICE TO THEIR HOME IN CHINA.
TELL ME MORE ABOUT THAT OP-ED
YOU WROTE ABOUT THE BRAZEN CCP
YOU WROTE.
>> NOT JUST CHINA.
IN AMERICA.
THEY WENT INTO A SCULPTOR IN
SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA, INTIMIDATED
HIM, TRIED TO FIND INFORMATION
TO FRAME HIM ON TAX CHARGES,
BURNED DOWN HIS SCULPTURE WHICH
WAS MOCKING XI JINPING.
THEY WENT TO THE FATHER OF AN
OLYMPIAN FIGURE SKATER IN SAN
FRANCISCO AND A INTIMIDATED HIM.
THEY SPENT OVER $3 MILLION
TRYING TO UNDERCUT A DEMOCRATIC
CANDIDATE FOR CONGRESS.
THEY’RETHEIR BRAZEN ACTIONS NO N
LIMIT.
THEY’RE COMING TO THE U.S.
RIGHT NOW THEY’RE GOING FOR
CHINESE.
THEY WOULD LOVE TO TAKE YOU OFF
THE AIR A, MARIA.
THAT’S THE FUTURE THEY SEE.
WE CAN STOP IT BUT WE HAVE TO BE
VIGILANT.
MARIA: HAVE YOU HAD BLOWBACK
FROM YOUR OP-ED?
>> NO.
WELL, I’VE BEEN ATTACKED IN THE
CHINESE PRESS.
NOT DIRECTLY FROM THE PRESS.
MY COLLEAGUE, HE WAS THREATENED
WITH JAIL.
HE’S A BRITISH CITIZEN.
THEY ACCUSED HIM OF COLLUDING
WITH A FOREIGN GOVERNMENT.
DOES THAT MEAN 6 MILLION OF US
ARE GUILTY OF NOT BEING CHINESE.
MARIA: THANK YOU.