- [Stephen Um] So what is missing in how Christians are being
catechized or discipled today?
- [Don Carson] It is so comprehensive a question and what might be missing will
depend a little bit on the denomination or the heritage. I mean,
there are some elements of evangelicalism that emphasize conversion and then have
not really thought through what comes next or it's just so some sort of loose, small
group Bible studies, a bit subjective. And other parts of the current evangelical
heritage still going for catechizing. And whether it's the Heidelberg Confession
or The New City Catechism that has been circulated by Redeemer and by
The Gospel Coalition and so on. And if by catechizing, we mean more
than simply learning a corpus of confessional truth but how it works
out in life, then there are some groups that are talking about how this works
out in our relationships with the poor or with people of other race or whatever.
That's part of discipleship as well, isn't it? It's not just knowing stuff,
it's doing stuff in conformity with Christ. And so it's a pretty comprehensive
question when you ask what's missing today. But at the risk of sticking my neck
out and saying what's missing today anyway, then I think that in the Western
world, when we do discipleship, it tends to be very privatized to build up
individual confidence in Christ, which is a good thing,
and individual self-examination, which is a good thing,
but relatively shallow thinking about the church,
about relationships, about the social dynamics of forgiving
one another, bearing with one another, shaping one another as iron sharpens iron
and so on. How many Christian virtues are shaped under the cross in the context
of fellow believers? What it means to do good to all people,
especially those of the household of faith, and from there touching the good of
the city and the good of a broken world all around us and letting our light shine
before others. I think there's relatively little thought given in those areas.
Provided you're not sleeping with your PA and you're not cheating on the books
and reading your Bible, you're okay. And I think that there's a more
comprehensive vision of life in that.
- So, definitely there needs to be some level of biblical and
theological content in our catechesis but you would agree that we're not going
to just be able to run a program and disciple people that way, right?
- [Tim Keller] Yes, certainly. I do think that in the past,
whether we knew it or not, we didn't know it, that we relied on our
culture to be...so much of the background of Western culture was Christian already.
So the very idea that there are moral absolutes, the very idea that the Bible is
a trustworthy book, there is so much background that we assume that the culture
did for us, that almost discipleship was like a finishing school.
Now I do think you can't assume that kids coming up have any of the basic
intellectual furniture of even believing in an absolute right and wrong,
for example. So, I do come from the Presbyterian tradition where we do use
the catechism but I do think the catechism tends to say, "Here's how we are"
let's just say, "Protestant rather than Catholic or reformed rather than
non-reformed." And we are going to have to find ways of saying, "Well, what does it
mean to even be... you know, who is God?"
You know, we tend to almost assume they...
when people hear the word God, that they think of a personal God,
an infinite God or even a Holy God. I do think in the past, people had a better
understanding of God, even if they had never gone to church. And, now they may
have no real good concept of that. And also as you hint,
I don't think you can just have a class anymore. You actually have to think
of every single thing that you do at the church as formative, everything,
your worship service, everything, the preaching, it's all...
it's going to take everything.
- So if we are living in a moral landscape and there is some sort of
a dominant story in our culture, how can we lead our people in our churches to be
able to think Christianly about everything and to be able to respond to that dominant
prevailing story?
- Let me back off just a wee bit. I think that it helps some
Christians to compare Paul's approach in Acts 13 when he's preaching
in a synagogue, in the city, in Antioch, and therefore dealing with people who have
a common shared background, and Paul preaching in Athens in Acts 17, where he's
dealing with pagans. So think of the common ground he had
in Acts 13, monotheism, for example, absolute right and wrong,
the nature of sin, what's wrong with the universe? History going somewhere,
a final heaven to be gained, a final hell to be feared, the nature of salvation
being tied up with being right with God, the notion of a covenant people.
All of those things were given, so he spends no time on them at all
in Acts Chapter 13. He moves very quickly to the resurrection,
Jesus truly is the Messiah and so and so.
- He even says, in the sense that you couldn't be justified
to the law, so he gets the justification.
- Yeah, he gets the justification - In Acts 13.
- And what it is in reference to the law, that's all given,
it's all given.
- In Acts 17, he hardly even gets to Christ and he takes
all on the doctrine of God.
- Correct. Doctrine of God, doctrine of creation, doctrine of sin, idolatry.
So and finally introduces history is going somewhere
and even he has to talk about the aseity of God, it's not as if God
needs anything. None of that would make sense.
- Because they did not have an understanding of the biblical God at all.
- No. That's right, the gods of the pagans where not independent, I mean,
they had all their lusts and fears and hopes and finiteness and so on.
And so religion was necessarily a bit of a swap, you scratch my back,
I scratch your back. And so he has to build that entire
framework before he gets to Jesus and that's rather striking.
So it's not that we have an easy grasp of theology and then we have to worry a lot
about practice. The theology itself has been snookered. It's been taken over
and preachers of some decades of experience with memories of the culture
in the past and so on sometimes forget how little of what they're saying is actually
clicking with the Gen Zs, I mean, they're being heard differently.
And so it's a comprehensive doctrinal and outworking discipleship that needs to be
done and that needs to affect preaching and teaching in Sunday school classes
and everything else.
- It does mean longer process, it does mean more patience,
it does mean being way more deliberate and it does mean every part of your church has
to be seen as discipling rather than it being a department.
- Yeah, I agree with. It's not as if you'd had all your
conversions over here and now we'll do discipleship. Doesn't even make sense
in the contemporary world.
- So discipleship is just not focusing on private personal piety
but also about helping people to have a framework for understanding how
to engage culture.
- And just to add one last thing. I do remember the Navigators old,
I don't know, I think, it designed for discipleship. It was a little six short
volume that it was workbooks. I remember how little there was in there
about the doctrine of God, almost nothing. And because they didn't, I mean,
when it was put together, they just assumed that anybody they were
dealing with even brand new converts, you know, already understood all
that stuff. We just can't assume that anymore.
- Can't assume anything.
- Very helpful. Thank you.