DAVID SPEERS, PRESENTER: Senator, welcome to the program. Let's start with the Ruby
Princess cruise ship, now linked to 21 coronavirus deaths. Who do you think was responsible for
the decision to let 2,700 passengers disembark on March 19?
KRISTINA KENEALLY, SHADOW HOME AFFAIRS MINISTER: Good morning David and good morning to
your viewers. When it comes to Australia's border, the buck stops with the Commonwealth. On March
15, the Prime Minister announced that his Government would stop, would ban foreign-flagged
cruise ships from arriving in Australia. He also announced on March 15 that there would
be some exceptions made for cruise ships already heading to Australia that had Australians
on board. And the Prime Minister said on March 15, that those cruise ship, which include
the Ruby Princess, would be, and I quote, "Under bespoke arrangements under
the direct command of the Australian Border Force." So four days later, the Ruby Princess
arrives under the conditions the Prime Minister set out, under the direct command of the Australian
Border Force. And I note that when it did arrive, front-line
Australian Border Force officers did raise some concerns about the passengers and the
illness on the ship. For some reason, those seem to have not been listened to. The Ruby
Princess's 2,700 passengers were allowed to disembark without a temperature test or quarantine
arrangements. As you now say, we now see that one ship responsible
for 700 COVID cases, over 20 deaths and a significant outbreak of COVID-19 in north-west
Tasmania. This one boat that Scott Morrison failed to stop has had tragic results right
across the country.
SPEERS: But do you accept, even under the bespoke arrangements that you talk about there
that were meant to be in place, the decision around the health of the passengers was still
delegated to NSW Health? Peter Dutton this morning on Sky News has said that Border Force
officers at the sea and airports aren't doctors. That decision is
devolved, or delegated to NSW Health in this case?
KENEALLY: Since 1901, the Commonwealth have had responsibility for our borders. And it
might help for your viewers to understand a bit how this spaghetti bowl, this complex
web of border security at our sea ports works. The Chief Medical Officer is the Director
of Human Biosecurity. Federal Agriculture Department officers work under
him. When a ship or a plane arrives, it must report ill passengers to the Federal Department
of Agriculture. And of course, Australian Border Force enforces the laws at our borders,
and in this case, they had specific direct command, as given to them by the
Prime Minister, for arriving cruise ships.
SPEERS: Sorry to interrupt, but..a key part of that ‘spaghetti bowl’ is that the Department
of Agriculture delegates to the state health officials?
KENEALLY: And that's exactly where I was about to go before you interrupted me. The NSW Health
have a delegated authority, but it is a delegated authority under the Biosecurity Act - the
Federal Biosecurity Act. As Professor Murphy said this week, as Professor Murphy said this
week, there are state and federal responsibilities here. He did
make the point that Australian Border Force are the lead agencies. I agree with Peter
Dutton - they're not doctors, and that's why you've got a Federal director of Human Biosecurity.
SPEERS: So who gives the medical all-clear?
KENEALLY: Indeed, we have a Chief Medical Officer of the Commonwealth who is the Director
of Human Biosecurity.
SPEERS: But he's not... (CROSS-TALK) He not there for every ship and plane that arrives.
KENEALLY: And those reports go to, those reports are made to the Federal Department of Agriculture.
And so when it comes to both practice and law, when it comes to our borders, the buck
does stop with the Commonwealth.
SPEERS: I appreciate ultimate responsibility there, but I'm just getting to who... Do you
agree that it is NSW Health, in this case, that was responsible for giving the medical
all-clear?
KENEALLY: No, David, I don't. Because the Prime Minister stood in front of the nation
on March 15 and said that arriving cruise ships would be under bespoke arrangements
under the direct command of the Australian Border Force. The Prime Minister, I don't
believe, said that as a marketing line. I believe that he meant it. So the Commonwealth
have a clear responsibility here for those arriving cruise ships under the announcement
made by the Prime Minister on the 15th of March.
SPEERS: Sorry, this is a pretty key question here. That was still delegated to NSW Health
- the medical decision, wasn't it?
KENEALLY: In fact, as the Chief Medical Officer said on Thursday in front of Senate select
committee on COVID-19, there are federal and state responsibilities, and he did not shirk
the fact that mistakes had been made. And in fact, what he made clear is that when this
ship arrived, it was under the command of the Australian Border Force.
SPEERS: I appreciate that. Sorry to stick on this, but I'm just trying to get from you
an acknowledgement that it was NSW Health responsible for the medical all-clear?
KENEALLY: That is not clear at all who gave the all-clear. As I said...
SPEERS: But who should have? Who was responsible. Is that clear to you who was actually responsible
for that?
KENEALLY: I know who is clear under the law. And under the Federal Biosecurity Act, the
Commonwealth are responsible, ultimately, for what happens at our borders.
SPEERS: Do you think that this should be cleared up going forward? That there needs to be some
change here to get away from the spaghetti bowl, as you call it. Maybe Border Force needs
to be equipped with its own medical teams at airports and sea ports to do this work,
rather than delegating it?
KENEALLY: What the Ruby Princess has exposed is that there are gaping holes in our border
security, particularly at our sea ports. And these gaping holes have real human consequences.
Take Graham and Carla Lake from Queensland. They went on the Ruby Princess to celebrate
Carla's 75th birthday. They both contracted coronavirus on the ship.
Ten days after disembarking, Carla died. Graham is devastated and it is a heart breaking story.
And I don't understand how the Prime Minister and Peter Dutton can't be moved by their story
and by the countless other story that are arising out of this, the
tragic consequences of the gaping holes and the decision to allow the Ruby Princess to
freely disembark passengers.
SPEERS: Back to the question... Does there need to be a change?
KENEALLY: David, we saw just a few days ago the Australian Border Force commissioner,
Michael Outram, stand up and say that there are holes. It was an extraordinary public
critique of federal government border policy. I think he's right, and this is a matter in
the first instance, at a federal level, that the Senate select committee on COVID-19 can
examine in detail.
SPEERS: Do you have any thoughts at the outset? Would you like to see Border Force take control
of these decisions?
KENEALLY: It does seem like there are too many cooks in the kitchen, so to speak, when
it comes to our border security. What the right arrangements should be, I don't think
that we should start to draw that out here today. But I do think that it does need to
be examined, and clearly, David, what Ruby Princess has exposed is that there are gaping
holes in our border security. Australians like Graham and Carla Lake should be able
to rely on our border security for their health, their well being and indeed their very lives.
SPEERS: Let me turn to the debate around economic reform that's begun this week. Are there any
no-go areas for Labor here?
KENEALLY: I want to make three quick points on economic reform, and I will get to the
direct question that you have asked. But my three quick points are these. 1 - this is
an unprecedented economic crisis, and no matter what side of politics you sit on, it is near
impossible to say what the economy will look like in three, six or 12 months. 2 - Labor
does want to see a rapid recovery if it is possible. But we are sceptical about that,
given the RBA and the IMF's projections for protracted high unemployment, and given the
Morrison Government's decision to exclude workers from JobKeeper. Workers like a
million casuals, temporary migrants, workers in the arts and entertainment sector. Council
worker and some teachers. And it does remain to be seen if the economy can snap back to
normal recovery in the 6-month time frame that the Prime Minister has set for himself.
Thirdly, when it comes to this unprecedented economic crisis, the Government
needs to come to the table - not with ideological positions, but with an open mind, with solutions
that fit the unprecedented challenges that we are facing. Now, you ask if there are any
no-goes to this reform? I point out that the Government
hasn't actually put any reform options on the table. They haven't actually canvassed
any changes to taxation. Should they do so, we will look at them carefully and respond.
SPEERS: But are there any no-go areas at the outset of this?
KENEALLY: We will respond what is in the best interests of real people in the community
and in the real economy.
SPEERS: But no red lines?
KENEALLY: I suspect you want to know what our views are on company tax and on industrial
relations. And I'd like to make these two points. One, when it comes to a company tax
rate, our position on that has been known for some time. It's not based on ideological,
it's based on economics and the cost of the thing. If there was evidence that cutting
the company tax rate in any country in the world has led to economic growth, you can
be sure that the Government would have been trumpeting it from the roof tops last year
when they were trying to get it through the Senate. We know that a company
tax rate is more likely to see the benefits go overseas, in the form of share buy backs,
increased dividends and executive salaries. There are better ways to support business,
such as an investment allowance and we encourage the Government to look at that. When it comes
to industrial relations, let's remember that the Australian economy was not
a great place for the Australian worker prior to COVID-19. There was rampant wage theft.
There was stagnant wages. There was increasing casualisation in gig work. There were rising
prices. The Australian Government should not come into this reform
process with old ideological, anti-worker, anti-union agendas. They should see the unions,
they should see working people as their partners, as they did with JobKeeper. We've got that
direct wage subsidy for many workers now because the Government, rightly, did not view the
unions as their enemy, but rather as their cooperator and their partner.
SPEERS: Can I pick up on the point that you made there. That the JobKeeper payment is
not available to a lot of casuals, to those on temporary visas as well. Is it your view
that they should be getting JobKeeper?
KENEALLY: Labor has been arguing since the JobKeeper legislation was put into the Parliament
that JobKeeper needed to be expanded to include as many workers as possible in the Australian
community.
SPEERS: So just to be clear... It should go to all casuals and all temporary visa holders?
KENEALLY: When they qualify under the rules of JobKeeper.
SPEERS: But you're arguing that the rules aren't broad enough. Should temporary visa
holders and casuals get JobKeeper?
KENEALLY: That is a position Labor has been arguing since we put, since the Government
put the legislation into the Parliament. Because if we can keep employees linked to their employer,
that is a better outcome, and it will lead to a quicker recovery.
SPEERS: But that would add about $20 billion or $30 billion to the cost here, if you extended
it to two million more people?
KENEALLY: We are already paying a cost, but through increased JobSeeker. We are going
to pay a longer term cost if the tail of this economic crisis extends longer than it needs
to. And I might just note that the Treasurer Josh Frydenberg was given, by the Parliament,
the power with the stroke of a pen, to include other workers into JobKeeper. I
note that late on Friday night, he did make changes to JobKeeper after the Government
said that they would make none. We welcome the fact that he has used those discretionary
powers and we say to him, if there are employees that we can keep in an
employment relationship with their employer through JobKeeper, he should consider that.
SPEERS: A couple of quick ones and schools. The Chief Medical Officer says, "The medical
advice has never been that the schools should close. We don't have evidence of significant
infection in children, and more importantly, we're not seeing evidence of significant transmission
amongst children." The New South Wales Report done by NSW Health
and the National Centre for Immunisation research also finds no evidence of students transmitting
to teachers in their schools. Do you I this that it is safe for children and teachers
to be at school?
KENEALLY: When it comes to schools, all of us in the community, especially parents and
teachers, should be listening to our Premiers and our Chief Ministers. They are the ones
that run the school system. And yes, there are concerns about children at schools. There
are also concerns about staff, cleaning staff, teaching staff, administrator
staff and parents who have to congregate at schools as well. So I say - listen your Premier
or your Chief Minister. At that Senate select committee on Thursday, the Federal Department
of Health could not tell senators what the Federal Government's advice is
regarding schools. They took that question on notice.
SPEERS: The medical advice is clear. I'm just pointing to the medical advice.
KENEALLY: Then why can't the Federal Department of Health tell us that?
SPEERS: OK, the Chief Medical Officer is pretty clear. He's been very clear in this. Are you
saying - listen to the Premiers, not the advice from the medical experts?
KENEALLY: The Premiers participate in the National Cabinet. The Commonwealth Chief Medical
Officer gives advice to the National Cabinet. When a Premier or a Chief Minister comes out
of the National Cabinet and makes a decision, I have the confidence that they, as the people
who run the schools, are making that decision in the best interests
of students and parents and teachers. David, can I also say this - I want to just take
my hat off to the parents right around Australia who are working from home, trying to continue
to educate their children from home. I mean, my own children are grown, but
I have extraordinary respect for what parents are doing right now, and also teachers who
are trying to remotely educate or educate in a classroom. I think all of us in the Australian
community owe them a debt of gratitude.
SPEERS: I think you're right in that. Finally, the tracing app is being launched today. Will
you be downloading it yourself?
KENEALLY: First of all, the tracing app could be a great tool. It could be a great tool
to protect Australia's public health. We have really good public health officials who do
paper based, if you will, contact tracing, and if an app can help new technology, that's
great. However, Australians will only download the app if they have confidence that their
privacy will be protected. And so, we are encouraging the Government to ensure those
privacy protections are built into the app. That the app has legislation around it that
means that the data cannot be used for any other purpose except contact tracing, and
that when this crisis is over, that authorities ensure that that data is deleted.
SPEERS: So you want this legislated? You want the privacy protections legislated?
KENEALLY: Yes. We do.
SPEERS: And you'll only...
KENEALLY: I think that the Australian people want that, David. I think that the Australian
people want that confidence.
SPEERS: So you'll have to wait until Parliament comes back next month, pass legislation before
you'd consider downloading it?
KENEALLY: Like many Australian, I'm waiting to see what the Federal Government has to
say in terms of the privacy protections that are built into the app, and the legislated
privacy protections they're going to put in place.
SPEERS: Kristina Keneally, thank you for joining us this morning.