Are you getting ready to negotiate with a narcissist and you want to know why they are
so dang difficult?
Then you definitely won't want to miss this episode.
This is actually part one of a three part episode and I am super excited because I've
joined forces with the foremost authority, the foremost experts psychologist in the area
of narcissism, Dr Ramani.
We're going to be bringing you many, many episodes.
This one is on specifically on how to negotiate with the narcissist and why they're so difficult.
I'm also super excited to announce to you that today I am launching my brand new course,
Slay your Negotiation with a Narcissist, and because of that I'm offering some special
bonuses and discounts.
Get the details below.
They are only available for a limited time, so you're definitely going to want to jump
on that and grab that.
Next up is the video, and make sure you watch till the end of the video so that when I release
part two that you'll be all up to date and you'll be able to catch right back up on where
we left off.
I am super excited to bring you this, bringing the legal perspective, the psychological perspective
and how to deal with and divorce that narcissist in your life.
I will see you on the inside.
You ready to go?
Let's go.
Hi, Rebecca Zung here with you on another episode of Negotiate your Best Life.
I am a top 1% divorce attorney, bestselling author of the books, Negotiate Like you Matter
and Breaking Free Step by Step Divorce Guide.
In these videos I give you all kinds of tips and tricks on how to negotiate with a narcissist
or how to navigate that high conflict personality.
I am so thrilled to kick off this series today with the topic of why is it so difficult to
negotiate with a narcissist, and with this entire series I am here with Dr Ramani, which
is my thrill, my honor, and my joy to be here with the foremost authority on narcissism.
Dr Ramani is a psychologist.
She knows this subject inside and out.
She's dedicated her life and her career to it.
And together we bring a perspective to you on the legal perspective, the psychological
perspective, and so this series is going to be absolutely incredible.
If you haven't already subscribed, hit the notification bell and let's dive in.
Why is it so difficult to negotiate with a narcissist?
I'm going to turn to you and just ask that to you as a question because I know I got
my answer.
Why is it so difficult to negotiate with the narcissist from an attorney's perspective?
Well, okay.
So what I'm going to tell you is that most people think that they're so difficult because
they want to win.
They're going to do whatever they can to win, which is true.
They are going to do whatever they can to win.
Yeah, it is.
Absolutely.
However, that is not actually what they want.
What they really want is to manipulate you.
So they constantly are moving the target.
Even if they give you three choices of things that they say that they'll settle for, and
you pick one, well now it's changed because the goal is to manipulate you.
The goal is to make it as difficult for you as possible.
So maybe that is the win, though.
I think that your initial premise is that they want to win.
I think for them, winning is manipulating.
Well, that's my point.
Because they're still playing with your head.
But it's not winning the way a rational person thinks.
Yes, not the way your rational person thinks.
Exactly.
Because a rational person thinks, well if I give them everything they're asking for,
then they've won, so they should be happy, but that's not what they want.
So you have to understand that what their real goal is, is to manipulate you because
then they maintain a sense of control over you.
So what's interesting about that though is that this idea, then, this idea...
Because you said something interesting, that if you give the narcissist everything they
want, then they'll be happy and this will go smoothly.
My guess is that...
And you'll know this better than I because you're in the actual legal setting with them,
that a lot of people who enter into negotiations with narcissists they're conflict averse.
They don't want to fight- 100%.
... they don't like...
So to them they've been forever trying to deal with this elusive target of the narcissist
happiness.
One thing I really try to impart on the clients I work with is there is no such thing as a
happy narcissist.
No, but you know what happens is, as you know, they start off this relationship with this
whole love bomb phase and so they spend the rest of their relationship trying to find
that space again because they once loved them.
They used to be so great to them.
They used to be so wonderful.
So if I'm just good enough, if I just do what they want, then I'll be able to find that
again.
But every single person who comes through the doors of my office says, I don't want
to fight.
Every single one.
That's interesting.
Every single one says, I don't want to fight.
I don't want to spend a lot of money.
So here's my question.
Do you ever get the narcissistic clients?
Oh, all the time.
Okay, so they're not going to come in and say, I don't want to fight.
No, they do say I don't want to fight.
Really?
Oh yeah.
But they say we're pretty much agreed on everything.
They think that they've already talked their victim into an agreement so they think it's
going to be easy.
And of course they still treat the attorney like they treat everybody else.
So this isn't going to cost a lot of money.
So you don't need to spend a lot of time on this.
I'll just bring the agreement to you and you'll just draft it up and it's not going to cost
a whole lot of money.
Have you ever had a case in negotiating a divorce where somebody has come in and said,
I am looking for a fight.
I'm going to punish this you know what, or- Every once in a while, but it's more like
the spurned person, and it's not that they say that I'm looking for a fight, it's more,
I deserve this.
They spin it differently than that.
It's more like he should pay because he cheated on me because we were supposed to stay married
the entire time or whatever.
I call that the difference between divorce law and divorce justice, because divorce justice
doesn't actually exist.
Yes.
Well-put.
Yeah, I like that.
Yeah.
Well, it's a common trope, we hear, is the pit bull attorney.
Hire me a pit bull.
I need me a pit bull.
Somebody who walked into a lawyer's office and says, I want a pit bull, is looking for
a fight.
Well, I think in their mind though, they're looking to protect themselves.
Well, okay.
Excellent.
That's a great distinction.
Okay, great.
Even thought ultimately they are looking for a fight.
I've had people say, I'm hiring you because you're a pit bull.
And I'm always thinking that's really interesting because I think I'm just trying to be fair
for my client or advocate for the client.
But you're dealing with a narcissist, and going back to the question of why it's so
difficult to deal with a narcissist, when you get into that litigation setting, because
remember you're dealing with the most scared, the most insecure personality type there is.
Even though they put on this great big show, they actually have zero self esteem.
So they get all of their value from the external and as you know, the supply.
And so when they get into this litigation setting, they can't allow themselves to look
bad.
Now they've got this person who knows stuff about them, who has the ability to make them
look bad by exposing them in some way.
And so what they do is they go on the offensive right away.
Triangulation, trying to get everybody against them, lying, manipulating everything the other
person says.
It doesn't matter what they say, it gets manipulated.
So that's partially why it's extremely difficult when you get in that setting because they
go into survival mode.
The narcissist or the person- The narcissist does.
Okay.
Well, I would actually argue both people are going into survive mode.
Well both of them do- Like everyone's got...
Especially the victim, for lack of a better word, might have their hands up against their
face, like to try to protect themselves, which is something they'd been sort of quietly doing
for the duration of a relationship.
Would you say though then...
Because we were calling this negotiating with a narcissist, and obviously many of you I
know who are watching, are going through a divorce, but would you say these kinds of
negotiation techniques would apply in other situations?
A workplace setting or any of these?
Any time.
Any time you're dealing with a high conflict personality, anytime you're dealing with a
narcissist, even if they're not technically a narcissist.
If they have a high conflict personality, if they have a personality where they want
to have control, where they're easily slighted, all of the personality traits of a narcissist,
it's the same kind of thing that you're going to be dealing with.
So you can't go at it like a rational person.
Rational people say, well let's just find some middle ground and we can settle and we
can have an agreement.
That will never happen when you're dealing with a narcissist.
I would also imagine and one of the tricky bits in narcissistic divorce, I see this all
the time with my clients, is that a person has been hurt by the narcissist.
The narcissist infidelity, the narcissist lying, the narcissist level of severe, almost
coercive control.
Okay.
We live in a country where most states in the United States have what are called no
fault divorces, which means that there's no attribution of blame that has anything to
do with how resources are divvied up.
So in other words, it's not like you get a bonus because your partner cheated on you.
It doesn't matter why the relationship ended, but ended.
I think in the world of the no fault divorce, the narcissistic divorce is even more painful
for people because there was so much due cause.
They're were like, are you kidding me?
This person gets 50% of my stuff and they cheated on me with 15 different people, and
this and that.
As the attorney, you must have to say, yep.
Well, it depends.
Oh, interesting.
Okay.
Yes.
I just want to dispel a myth.
And the myth is that no fault means that fault never matters.
Okay, great.
That's an important to clarify.
Yes.
So no fault only means that you don't have to prove fault in order to get a divorce.
So for years and years and years, you couldn't get divorced unless you proved that a person
cheated on you or proved that a person abandoned you or something.
No fault just means that you don't have to prove fault in order-
You can just say, I'm done.
... You can just say it's irretrievably broken or whatever you say.
Each state has their own nomenclature.
But it doesn't mean fault never matters, because fault can matter.
In fact, in Florida, in the alimony statute, it actually says that infidelity can be taken
into consideration.
Now, I've never seen a judge say, I'm ordering more alimony because the person cheated but
judges are people too.
So if you shock the judicial conscience in such a way where you're so bad and you've
treated the person so horribly, they will take that into consideration and certainly
they can take it into consideration when it comes to splitting assets.
Because if somebody has spent a lot of money on a paramour of some sort, and I've seen
the worst situations.
I saw a guy who had a relationship with a woman for years and years.
He bought her a house, they had a child together, he was sending the child to private school,
all kinds of things and the wife never knew this woman existed.
So hundreds of thousands of dollars of marital money went into this person so the wife was
entitled to half of that, what we call marital waste or dissipation.
Oh, interesting.
Okay.
That's important to know.
That's really important to know.
Yes.
It's not that fault never matters.
It can matter.
But you are a bit at the mercy of the court.
It is.
You start with the premise of 50/50 in most states, and some states call it equitable
distribution.
Some states call it community property.
But it's kind of basically the same, where you have a marital pot, you have a nonmarital
pot.
There's a his/hers and theirs, is what I call it.
It's not that it never matters.
It can matter.
Okay.
So I think that one thing I...
Well, assets matter and they matter a lot for people because many times people are saying,
listen, I've worked with a lot of people who are the non wage earning partner in the relationship,
men or women, and they may have lost years in the workforce.
So they're not going to be able to make as much money, so equitable division of assets
matters, but narcissists are tricky.
So they're very clever- They hide money.
Yeah, they hide money- 100%.
... and forensic accounting is expensive and all of that.
But when it comes down to brass tacks, all things being equal, as long as people can
pay the rent, the bigger issue becomes custody and I guess that's something we're going to
get talk to, and talk- We are.
... about because I know that a lot of the people who are watching that, when it comes
down to it they'll say, you know what?
I'd be happy to give it all up if I could get full custody.
My understanding, and this is where your clarification would be great, that's not permissible to
say I won't take a cent, but I want the kids.
Well, child support is a right of the child.
It's a vested right of the child.
It's actually in trust for the child in some ways, even though it doesn't go into a trust.
Actually child support is an interesting thing too because the way child support actually
works is, it seems like one is paying the other.
But what's really happening is that if you look at the child support statutes...
If you ever get a copy of the statute book, you will see the way it looks is that there's
one number for that child.
If the parents' combined income is X per month, then this is how much they should be spending
on this child- On this child.
... and they take a lot of things into consideration.
Whatever the value is of putting a roof over the kid's head or feeding this kid or whatever
the average is for that.
So they come up with a number that that child should have spent on him based on these parents
combined incomes.
If there is a disparity in incomes, then that disparity is what gets paid to the other parents.
Okay, but there's going to be a disparity in income many, many times-
Of course.
... especially when you have a wage earning and a non wage earning situation.
When we get out of the final legal points, what people will say is that...
Usually it's the narcissistic parent is saying, why the hell should I give her that much money?
You just said it's not giving her anything.
It's for the child.
They're not going to see it that way.
As far as they're concerned, you can say all the legal statutes till the cows come home,
this is going to the child, that narcissistic parents sees that money going to that parent
who makes less money or no money- 100%.
... to take care of that child.
100%.
Okay.
So going back again to that original question that while child support is for the child,
I can't tell you how many clients I've worked with who said can't I go to the court?
Because the argument is becoming...
The narcissist, I don't want to give him or her anything-
Because the court doesn't want children to become wards of the state.
That's right.
I understood.
But you see- They won't allow anybody to give up child
support.
So then that's the interesting conundrum the victim, as you will, the other partner who's
not narcissistic or parent gets into, is that they're like, I just don't want my kids to
be raised by this person.
This person is toxic.
They might be dangerous.
But we know that that level of dangerousness, that has to be established-
What you're really getting into though is leverage.
Okay, and that's what we're going to get to.
Interesting.
Yeah, because that's a point of leverage.
Saying I'll give up child support, that's something that you don't want to give in on
right away because you want to get other things first.
There are ways that you can get around the whole child support thing, which we'll get
into when we get into that episode.
We'll get into that because I- But that is a piece of leverage that you don't
want to give away.
Don't give away your leverage too early people, please.
Right.
That's a big issue.
Thanks for watching this part one of the three part episode on Why Negotiating With a Narcissist
is So Difficult.
If you haven't already, make sure you subscribe to my channel.
Hit the little notification bell so that you don't miss one single tip or trick.
Also, make sure to check below for details on my brand new course, as well as downloading
my free, all free, Crush my Negotiation prep worksheet.
There's a link to that as well.
I will see you in the next episode, part two of my discussion with Dr Ramani on Why Negotiating
is So Difficult.
Until then, today is a great day to start negotiating your best life.