It's great to welcome to the program today, Dr Sophie Leroy who is associate professor
at the University of Washington baffles school of business.
A great to speak to you today.
I appreciate it.
Oh, you're welcome.
It's great to be on your show.
So let's just start with when we talk about the idea of multitasking, does multitasking
even really exist or is it just switching between one task and another and working on
each individually?
You're right.
Um, it actually does not fully exist.
Like I brain can not process two things at the same time.
So what we do is actually we switched very quickly between two things or even more.
Um, so we feel like we are multitasking when in fact we are not, we're really, again, switching
back and forth, back and forth really, really fast.
So when these, uh, tests or studies that are sometimes done where someone is, for example,
driving a car on a closed course and they're different obstacles that pop up and they're
simultaneously being given simple or sometimes not so simple math problems over the phone.
It does seem as though you are both driving and solving the math problems at the same
time.
But in some sense, are you sort of putting the driving in an autopilot mode as you think
about the math problems?
Yes, absolutely.
And that's why from a performance standpoint, this is really problematic, right?
Because what it means is that when you do the math problem while you're driving, you're
actually not focused on the road.
You're not processing what's going on on the road.
And so you can miss cues, you can miss things that are happening.
Your reaction time is delayed, um, because you need something else to capture your attention
very, you know, very fast back on the road.
Um, and so when you're not also when you're on the road and not doing your math problem,
you're going to be slower at your math problem because you're actually not processing the
math.
Right?
So from a performance standpoint, there are many issues that come into play due to the
fact that because we're switching back and forth there, it's very small time period where
you're actually not doing what you're suppose to do.
So when we think about how we might sort of do our work throughout the course of a day,
and there is a lot of this, what some people might call multitasking, but it's really switching
between tasks back and forth.
Uh, there's the term attention residue, which is an interesting term, which if I understand
correctly, relates to the way in which as you switch between tasks, some of your attention
is not fully there yet or is remaining on the prior task.
Is that more or less what we mean when we say attention residue?
That's right.
And so it's a little different from the multitasking aspect, right?
So multitasking, you're trying to do two things at the same time and your brain is switching
back and forth, back and forth between those two things.
Attention, residue is a little different in the sense where it occurs when we work on
something and then we have to let it go and transition to something else.
And in that case, our brain cannot do that either.
We have a part time, um, transitioning because we have a hard time letting go of things that
are incomplete.
So attention or is, it does not necessarily occur all the time, but it occurs when we're
not fully satisfied with what we've done is not finished.
We were interrupted in the middle of that thought process and as we transition, the
brain does not want to let go, um, in part because we have a need for completion.
And so those transitions or those interruptions are really frustrating.
I need for, for full completion.
And so the brain is going to hold onto it, process what's going on on that task that
we had to put aside.
And so what happens is we have actually divided attention, our brain, in fact then multitask,
attention residue is a form of multitasking and the dance that it will go back to the
task we were working on previously and, and then at the same time tried to perform are
we supposed to do in the present?
Um, so it's a little different, right, in terms of what triggers that.
Um, but it's very relevant to the workplace as well because as you think about how we
work, right?
Oftentimes we have to go from meetings to next we're working on a project balloon, there's
a phone call.
Um, if for example, about a call from a client or someone else passing by a colleague who
needs some information and is asking some questions, right?
So we have to transition very frequently and Wooster transitions are just very, very hard,
um, for the brain to, to, to, to perform.
So when I interviewed cal Newport a few weeks ago, who teaches computer science at Georgetown,
I believe it is, um, he suggests this idea of planned deep work, right?
Focusing on single intense tasks for long periods of time.
Because you're reducing the number of those transitions that you're referring to and you
can be most sort of productive and thinking most deeply when you spend a long period of
time focused on one thing.
Of course the practical issue seems to be that in more and more jobs, 2030, 40, even
more than half of the job, it can basically be writing emails and switching to meetings
and taking phone calls and those types of activities.
So it seems like that is definitely the best ideal, but it seems very impractical for many
modern jobs at this point in time.
Absolutely.
And, and that's actually where my, um, my research is focused on is kind of assuming
that we can't change our corporate cultures, um, that the neat can off this need, um, to
get information right away and can, if we have a sense of urgency and that triggers
a lot of those interruptions.
Uh, think about all the technologies that we have is fascinating.
All those interruptions.
And so if we assume that those interruptions are going to stay, then how do we cope with
this, uh, cognitively?
Right?
So I'm going to go back to this side at that, what is the brain in need for?
What prevents the brain to transition, to move from one test to another, to move from
deep work to deep work?
Is this need for completion?
And so what I've found in my research is that when we're in a position where we're all working
on something we are interrupted, isn't complete, we ask to move, we need to spend maybe a minute
to create what I call them ready to resume plan.
And so as I same idea of planning, it is a different implementation of it, which is your
stop.
You say, okay, what is it that I was doing?
Where am I on my project?
What is it that I want to do next when I returned to it?
So especially planning the return is critical for the brain to feel like, okay, I can let
go because yes is not finished, but I have a plan that will allow me to complete.
And so that sense of completion is not as threatened as it is when we just drop everything
and switch [inaudible] we need to raise the employee on.
What I've shown is that it actually helps reduce attention residue on the next desk.
And as a result, performance on that net next steps actually increased tremendously.
Um, I tested it for different ways, you know, it improves the quality of our processing
in terms of processing or if information people are able to pay more attention, it improves
the quality of a decision making that people engage in.
Um, it improves, um, recall of information so they have to recall information, think
that they've read.
Um, that's also has improved.
So what was really interesting is it was a less than a minute intervention and that led
to huge impact on attention and on performance.
No.
What did you learn about?
So if you're, if you're writing something for example, and you take a brief break to
look at your email and respond to one email and then you go right back to the writing,
how long is the brain affected in terms of limited focus after what might be just 30
seconds to write an email.
You know, it's, it's, it's actually is huge.
It's really surprising that how you, I think it's counter intuitive for a lot of people.
How just this very brief interruption would actually, um, um, affects you when you come
back.
Right?
So, so the issue of switching in that case is you switch to something else than what,
what happens when you come back?
Well, the brain basically has to remember where is it that you were and what kind of
thoughts, um, you can afford once your train off.
That's where you were going and all levels things by just switching away for a second,
then it's going to take you a long time to remember where you were, to regain the, some
level of concentration to remember where you were going.
Um, and so it doesn't really, I mean obviously the longer the interruption, they're harder.
That switched back.
Um, you know, the harder it is to switch back.
But, but even small interruptions actually a detrimental, and so I think that's where
like if you're writing something and you have to switch, even if it was just a few seconds,
if you can have put capital ideas of what you wanted to write, but even, you know, often
time people switched because it kind of like they don't know what to do next.
They're not fully there or the bored or it's gonna have a, a hurdle.
Right.
And so just write like, okay, I need to write about X. I don't know how to, but that's okay.
And then you switch and then your return.
Oh yeah.
Now I know it was about next
that, that, that seems to me to be one of the most pernicious elements of the sort of
modern task switching availability of social media at anytime that you want.
Because at some point in the past, if you are writing something and you have a very
brief, you know, momentary writer's block for example, you think through it and maybe
in five minutes of your past it, but it's so easy and it's so attractive to pick up
your phone and look at Facebook or look at Twitter that even only 45 or 60 seconds later
you've now looked at, you know, 30 different posts and thought about 30 different things.
It actually seems like it will hinder you from getting past that writer's block in a
way that may be just sitting there quietly for five minutes would actually let you work
through the problem.
Yes.
Because he makes you busy with something else and you know, very some research that shows
that, um, when we let things incubate, um, we get new ideas.
And so it's not that these is less about doing something else, but if, if that next test
cause very pooling, very engaging and even social media I up to some extent is you don't
have a cognitive space to actually answer your friends while at the same time think
about the ideas that you were trying to express that you know, or orbit problem you're trying,
you were trying to solve.
And so, um, we're not getting, we're not getting matched by switching in that case from a pure
creativity standpoint or problems savings standpoint.
Um, and so it, but it's tempting.
It's easier.
It feels good, right?
Yeah.
So I mean, I guess given that it's just our phones and the apps and the Internet platforms
that we use are, are designed to keep our attention for as long as possible.
How drastic do the measures need to be that one uses or employees to avoid those temptations
and distractions?
I mean, should you be disconnecting your computer from the Internet?
If it's possible.
What I mean it's just not practical.
Like when I'm preparing for my show, all of my source material is on the Internet.
So I can't literally disconnect from the Internet, but I can put my phone in the other room,
for example.
Yes.
Um, so maybe a couple thoughts, right?
I agree.
I think it's um, you know, but the more you block what is tempting, you know, so he's
going to be different things for different people.
Um, the, the, I think the easier it is to not go there when you've faced with a challenge.
Um, one thing that I, for example do is, um, I will look at the time and I said, okay,
for the next 30 minutes I am not touching anything.
Right.
Um, now if there's something that I've, um, that happened to me that I think is interesting
and also relevant to this kind of checking out or checking Avu devices.
Um, for longest time I would put my phone on vibrate so that I would not be interrupted.
But then I realized that, um, I would check it because just in case this kid school cold
for example, just in case someone ugly texted me and I felt like I need you to answer.
And I realized that was actually forcing me to, to transition versus if I have it on volume,
um, then I don't have to worry about it because I will hear it.
If someone wants to call me now, I have to tell you, not a lot of people call me during
the day, so, right.
So that's also, I, I know that I can leave that on volume and not be interrupted damage,
but he had completely removed all my checking behaviors because I know if someone has to
reach me, I will hear them.
I don't have to worry about them.
And so I allow myself than to have my phone with me.
Um, the other thing that I do is very much like you, I do a lot of, in terms of research,
I have to be on the Internet and I will go, I'm going to tell myself I am not going to
check the news.
I'm not going to take anything outside of work.
Um, you know, even email for next two hours.
And, but that requires US discipline.
But the, the, the interesting part of it is I think it's discipline that we can learn
and we can train our attention not to crave for those, you know, fast gratification through
social media, for example.
Uh, we can train our brain to stick with what we're doing for longer time periods, slowly.
Um, so that's where I think there's hope, but it depends on what we are willing to do
and what our goals are.
Yeah, definitely.
It seems like there's an element in this in which the brain is sort of like a muscle that
can be strengthened, so to speak, uh, to, um, be better at maintaining attention for
longer, longer periods of time.
Uh, we have been speaking with Doctor Sophie Leroy who is an associate yeah.
Professor at the University of Washington Bothell school of business.
Thanks so much for talking to me today.
Oh, it was a pleasure.
Thank you so much for inviting me.