JEFF WALLENFELDT: I'll do my best.
SPEAKER 1: Yeah.
So we'll just start.
And we'll just see how it goes.
Hi, Jeff.
Thanks for joining us today.
JEFF WALLENFELDT: Hey.
How are you doing, Matt?
SPEAKER 1: Could you introduce yourself and your role at Britannica?
JEFF WALLENFELDT: Sure.
I'm Jeff Wallenfeldt.
And I'm a senior editor and the manager of geography and history.
SPEAKER 1: Great great.
So, Jeff, you know, some of our previous episodes as of late
have been very science focused.
But with 4th of July coming up this weekend, I thought
it was a great opportunity to talk about one of the most important dates-- maybe
the most important date-- in our nation's history,
and specifically to talk about the Declaration of Independence.
This document announced the separation of the 13 colonies from Great Britain.
My first question, really, is, why did we need an official document?
And who was it meant for?
JEFF WALLENFELDT: So it's not a declaration of war, because they had already been fighting.
It is a statement of nationhood and statehood.
It's telling the world of nations that this group of 13 colonies
is constituting a new nation on the planet, a new country on the planet.
The body of the Continental Congress, at that point,
appointed a five-person committee to write a larger statement of independence.
And that committee was made up of Thomas Jefferson of Virginia,
Benjamin Franklin of Pennsylvania, John Adams of Massachusetts, Roger Sherman from Connecticut,
and Robert Livingston from New York.
So those five people went to work in June on drafting a declaration of independence.
And Jefferson was kind of the [INAUDIBLE] writer in the group.
So they let him come up with the first draft of the Declaration of Independence.
So it's largely his words.
And then those other five folks responded to him.
SPEAKER 1: We voted that we wanted to separate on the 2nd.
And then this was verified on the 4th, correct?
Is that why we celebrate on July 4th?
JEFF WALLENFELDT: Right.
So what happened is, then, on June 28, the committee of five
reports or present the declaration-- the draft of the Declaration of Independence--
to the larger Congress.
And then they began debate on the broader Declaration of Independence.
So the 2nd through the 4th, they debated the Declaration of Independence and voted on it
and approved that on July the 4th.
SPEAKER 1: So, Jeff, if we look at the document, it's broken down into three main parts.
Correct?
JEFF WALLENFELDT: Right.
The first part is the preamble, which establishes the right to revolt.
It establishes the right to have a revolution or to revolt and to declare independence
under certain conditions.
And then, the next section is the grievances, which
outlines what those particular conditions are-- those grievances that the colonists have
against Great Britain and against George III.
And the last part is the resolution or the actual declaration.
SPEAKER 1: Got it.
So I just want to read some excerpts from it.
And I'm hoping you can kind of help us understand some of the language,
since it was so far back.
One of the most famous passages that's been debated for centuries is from the preamble.
And it says, "We hold these truths to be self-evident,
that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator
with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty,
and the pursuit of happiness."
Looking back on that language and the year of 1776,
how is Thomas Jefferson measuring equality?
Because if you look at history, slavery wouldn't be abolished for almost another 100 years.
The women's rights movement didn't start until the mid-1800s.
So how was he really measuring what equality meant at the time?
JEFF WALLENFELDT: That passage and Jefferson himself and his thought
is used by people all across the political spectrum, interpreted
as meaning many different things.
I think, basically, what Jefferson is talking about is
saying that the English colonists are not being treated-- they are not
given their equal rights as Englishmen.
They are not-- rights that are--
natural rights that are devolved to them and that are being denied to them by the crown,
by George III.
Is he saying, though, that all people in the colonies are created equal?
Probably not.
He is talking about--
in all likelihood, he is talking about white men and probably
white propertied men, excluding those people that he would have thought
were not part of civil society.
So that would be very likely that he did not mean enslaved people
or that he did not mean women.
And so that language, then, would be given new meaning
with someone like Abraham Lincoln in the Gettysburg Address, where he looks at it
and says that all people may not be created exactly identical,
but all people are created with the same political and human rights.
SPEAKER 1: Got it.
So this passage has really been the foundation that we've been building on since 1776.
JEFF WALLENFELDT: Absolutely.
SPEAKER 1: And still talking about it today.
From there, we get into the list of grievances.
Some of them seem pretty straightforward.
There was 27.
They say things like, for cutting off our trade with other parts of the world,
for imposing taxes on us without our consent, for depriving us
in many cases of the benefits of trial by jury.
What's the percentage that we were unhappy with the way
that we were treated from a taxation point of view and from trade?
Was that kind of a really large part of it?
JEFF WALLENFELDT: Oh, I think it-- you know, you can look at it in several ways.
You can break it down, like, by that.
Or you can break it down by saying how many of the--
how many of the grievances are judicial?
How many are about executive?
How many of them are about the legislative?
A bunch of them are responses to the Quebec Act of 1774, which really angered the colonists.
SPEAKER 1: Interesting.
So there's a couple of different ways to break down the grievances.
JEFF WALLENFELDT: Right.
SPEAKER 1: There were some other ones that I think were less straightforward.
Or maybe it was just the language.
One says, "he has endeavored to prevent the population of these states,
for that purpose obstructing the laws of naturalization of foreigners,
refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither,
and raising the conditions of new appropriations of lands.
What is that saying?
JEFF WALLENFELDT: Well since about 1740, the colonies
were able to determine their own rules for naturalizing citizens in the colonies
and encouraging them.
They realized the importance of immigrants and really tried to encourage immigration.
And in 1773, George III took away their right to do the legislation.
He did that because he had been advised that the growth of the colonies was not a good thing,
because they were getting too independent.
And he wanted to find a way to try to slow down immigration, both from Great Britain
and from Europe.
SPEAKER 1: Interesting.
So he was trying to prevent growth, essentially.
JEFF WALLENFELDT: Right.
SPEAKER 1: Now, as you get through the 27 grievances,
you finally get to the last part, which is really
the declaration of the independence, which has another very famous phrase that a lot of people
know, which is, "that these united colonies are, and of right
ought to be free and independent states."
This passage is taken directly from a motion that had been introduced by Richard Henry Lee
and adopted by Congress on July 2, before it began debating
the committee's draft of the declaration.
And this was really kind of the statement that told Great
Britain we're going to form our own country.
Would that be the right way to say it?
JEFF WALLENFELDT: It is, because the declaration is a--
it is a statement of nationhood and the declaration of the creation of a new state.
SPEAKER 1: Got it.
And then, you know, that was obviously to send a message to the king and to Great Britain.
But from what I read, there were other goals with this document,
with this Declaration of Independence, one of which
was to actually gain support from other countries.
And there's an excerpt that would support this.
And it says, "In every stage of these oppressions,
we have petitioned for redress in the most humble terms.
Our repeated petitions have been answered only by repeated injury.
A prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a tyrant
is unfit to be the ruler of a free people."
To me, this kind of reads of us saying--
like, telling the rest of the world, look, we tried.
We tried to work with Great Britain.
But they haven't changed.
And so this is why we've made the decision to form our own union.
JEFF WALLENFELDT: Right.
I think that's right.
It is kind of a justification.
And there's no question but that, when you're talking
about trying to influence other countries in the world for support, there's no question
but the colonists were sort of looking one very expectant eye towards France.
And it's also-- it's also a statement to the people of the colonies.
It's letting these disparate-- this disparate group of people know what they have in common
and what it is that they're fighting for, what they're rebelling against.
SPEAKER 1: So throughout history, has this document--
has the Declaration of Independence inspired other revolutions?
JEFF WALLENFELDT: Yeah.
I think that's unquestionable.
The ongoing American experiment in democracy-- can a representative government
and a government by the people stand?
SPEAKER 1: Do you think that these founding fathers would think that, in 2020, we
would still be debating a lot of these issues?
JEFF WALLENFELDT: Yeah, probably.
I think they would.
I think they might-- they might be surprised that we're still
operating under these same principles.
But of course, that's a huge judicial argument that
takes place about whether there's strict interpretation of the Constitution and so on.
But I think they might be surprised.
You know, Jefferson thought that you'd need to change the government every 20 years
or something like that and kind of came late to the idea
that his words would have lasting significance.
SPEAKER 1: So, Jeff, thanks for taking the time to talk with us
today about the Declaration of Independence.
I think there is obviously a lot to unpack with this document, something
that's still so relevant today.
So I really appreciate your time.
JEFF WALLENFELDT: My pleasure.
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