Edward Enninful, thank you so much for joining us.
Thank you for having me.
What drives you?
What drives me?
Oh my god, I love, you know, the idea of just,
as simple as this, an inclusive world.
A world where people see themselves reflected.
Because I was supposed to be invisible by all accounts.
I was supposed to not be where I am.
I was supposed to have disappeared a long time ago,
and every turn in my life was about visibility.
Yes, I will be this person who's not supposed to be here.
Yes, I will fight through the hard times.
Yes, I won't give up.
And even though I was sort of the token Black editor
in the industry in the 90s,
I knew even then that I needed to bring people up with me.
I needed to bring other people up with me,
and so that's really been a part of, you know,
maybe it was growing up in a family of six.
I don't know, you know?
When you run a team,
how do you instill that work ethic?
That kind of answering emails at all time?
Yeah. I mean, you know.
I think you set an example, you know.
If you're an editor who leaves and has lunches
and is never in the office, you know,
you don't really sort of instill faith.
My team know that we're on a mission.
We have to reflect the world we live in.
We have to reflect the beauty of multiculturalism.
We have to reflect, you know,
the beauty and diversity and inclusivity.
So everybody takes it really seriously.
And we really have intense conversations
about the zeitgeist and the world.
And so, you know, I'm very lucky to have a team
who are as passionate.
And I can call my team, you know,
I can call somebody at 6:00 AM
or they can call me at 6:00 AM
and I'll pick up and they'll pick up.
So, you know, we have something very special
that we've built over the past sort of five years.
But there were difficult moments, right?
I think the first time, one of your first issues,
you thought that you could have been fired for it.
Is that right?
I mean, I lived in America for a bit
and I was working for "W Magazine"
and there was talk of Brexit,
and of course Americans were like, "Your country's really,
you know, xenophobic."
So, you know, I came back and I thought, you know,
"Oh, I'm gonna be working with open arms
and they're gonna love me."
And oh my god, literally baptism by fire.
But I remember thinking, you know,
I wanted to create a magazine
where every woman could see themselves.
You know, where every woman, regardless of their background,
regardless of their age could just literally see themselves.
And at the time, now it looks like it's the norm
when you look at other magazines,
but in 2017, that was a radical idea.
But I also remember thinking, you know,
with my background, you know,
I've lost so much and gained so much
that I thought, if I'm fired,
I'd rather be fired for what I believed in.
I'd rather be fired for creating a magazine
that reflected the world as it was
than try to sort of create a second rate version
of someone's vision.
And that continues.
I mean, and there's this idea of always pushing forward.
Yes. Right?
What's the end? How do you measure success?
How do I measure success?
Definitely not financial.
I mean, I think it's more about, for me,
when I'm really exhausted, when I'm really tired,
when I'm really questioning if I can go on, you know,
I walk on the street and I see a little girl,
a little Black girl who's seeing the magazine
and it's the norm for them,
or a curvy woman on a train to Paris
who's like, "Thank you for seeing me," you know,
that makes it worthwhile.
That for me is success.
You know, and anybody who knows
or has known me for a while will witness that
that for me is success.
You know, my job is done when that happens.
They say that the fashion industry is changing.
You're changing it.
Are others around you changing it?
I mean, now, you know, you look at other magazines,
and seeing real women in there,
it's no longer a radical act.
Seeing, you know, people of color,
women of color on covers is no longer a radical act.
So it's been normalized,
and for me, I'm quite happy when I see that.
You know, when you put Dame Judi Dench on the cover
and she's 85-years-old, and the world just loved it.
Nobody questioned her, you know,
"Should she be on the cover?"
Or, you put, you know, a girl with a hijab on the cover
and it's not a problem.
That for me shows that we're advancing, we're progressing.
So, you know, progress for me is very important.
Which is important.
And so how do you take care of your team?
How do you build a team around you?
My team, I mean, you know.
Somebody said to me once, "When you build a team,
make sure you employ people you like."
People, when you see them walking towards your office,
you're just so excited to see.
That was it.
Being good at your job and sort of a connection
and being excited to see team members
because you're only as good as your team, you know?
No man is an island, you know.
I don't create the magazine on my own.
And so it's great to have a team who you respect
and whose views your respect and who respect yours.
How do you think you're seen by your team?
Do you have to be fearful?
Do you have to be authoritarian
or collaborative? I'm a worker.
I work very hard, but I think I'm pretty open.
You can have conversations with me, you know.
Ultimately the final decision rests with me,
but I do listen.
I like conversation. I like interaction.
And so that's, I mean, that's how...
I hope they think I'm a good boss,
and that's, you know, really all you can hope for.
Because they work on a very good magazine.
They can get other jobs anywhere.
So the fact
that they're there makes me think
that they must be happy.
Edward, how do you see the publishing world changing?
So people buy less magazines. Yes.
You've been doing pretty well in terms of selling more.
But in five years, how does it look?
I mean, I was like, you know, five years ago,
I mean, let's go back to "i-D."
When I was 18, you know, I inherited a magazine, you know,
which would come out.
It was all about club kids and you had to be out there.
And the only way you could see street fashion was
through "i-D."
And then 2017, I inherited, you know,
I inherited a magazine, but now I oversee a brand.
You know, the magazine is still there.
The magazine is sort the highest of the high,
the best paper, you know, the best photographers,
the best, you know, cultural messages.
But at the moment, you know,
when you manage a brand, it's not just about that.
It's about digital.
It's about video.
It's about audio. It's about events.
So for somebody who's so forward-looking,
it's so great for me.
And people always ask, "Oh, our magazine's dead.
When we launch a cover,
Instagram is our cover, essentially."
So we've found a way of sort of making it work hand in hand,
and it's so great for me, you know.
I think had I just been doing the magazine
I probably would've been bored.
Yeah. So magazines aren't dead.
Are they gonna go down?
Yeah, but they're gonna work in hand
with digital platforms, you know.
But also, I'll tell you something.
New readers of "Vogue,"
young readers don't necessarily come to us
through the newsstands.
They come through our digital platforms
or, you know, audio or videos we put out.
So yes, now it's increased tenfold.
So yeah.
Do you think that will change the kind of readership
that you will court, the either age of your readers
but also where they come from?
Yes, I mean, at the moment, you know,
I think the readership is getting younger
because of, you know, the whole digital landscape.
And I hope that as we move forward, it kind of, yeah.
We have new readers
and we also keep our loyal readers, you know?
Edward, do you think there's ever a time
where actually we won't have print magazines anymore?
No, I think print will always exist
sort of alongside digital,
but it'll probably be something more precious,
sort of better paper, something more collectible
that you want to keep in your house almost like artwork.
So, no, I don't think print is going to die.
So fewer copies. Fewer copy.
But more artsy. But better quality.
You know.
Almost like a book. Coffee table book.
I love that.
I know. Me too.
What will be your biggest challenge
to grow the brand in the next five years?
Biggest challenge would be to still keep it relevant.
You know, we have such great digital traffic, you know.
Almost 6 million every month to British Vogue.
But I'm really sort of excited
about overseeing the European Vogues' as well,
Spain, Italy, Germany, and France,
and sort of mentoring a whole new generation
of editors, you know.
When there was this whole amalgamation,
the whole world thought there was a global view
that was going to dominate,
but it's very much about local conversations
as well as global conversations.
So I learned from these content leads,
and I hope that, you know, they also learn.
So the local, global conversation
I'm very excited about moving into the future.
Do you think it changes
if we're in a recessionary environment?
So you have such a, you know, glamorous lifestyle,
or what you sell is so glamorous,
is it impacted by the cost of living or inflation
of what we can live through? Yes. I mean, you know,
I remember a few years ago I put Taylor Swift on the cover,
and the byline was "Buy better, buy less."
And it was a radical concept at the time.
But now we all talk about sustainability.
We know we can't keep shopping every day.
We know we have to buy things that last,
things that help the planet, things that we can pass on
to sort of other generations.
So I think that really is the conversation
that the fashion industry is having right now
that I find so exciting.
And it's going to be sort of, you know,
people are going to have less money
so they have to buy things that last.
And I'm really excited.
And these are real changes.
It's not just- Real changes.
Real changes.
It's not just conversation. It's actually happening.
Do you think fashion brands always need
to have a political point of view
when there are great injustices?
I think fashion brands can do more.
I feel that having Black models in your show
or having, you know, a feed on your Instagram posts,
it's not enough.
We need diverse voices behind the scenes.
I always say when I talk to sort of all the CEOs I know,
we need to employ more people
from, you know, diverse backgrounds,
because that's the only way you can even reach out
to more people, you know?
A variety of voices are always better than just one.
And I always also say, you know,
"Let's not just have interns.
Let's have people on all different levels."
And that's what I keep talking to people about.
Edward, we actually have one of the diverse cabinets
here in the UK with Liz Truss.
Is that important to you?
It is so important
as somebody who came from another country
and was sort of welcomed by the UK.
It's very important to have a diverse cabinet.
That's how change happens, you know?
Going back to what we discussed before,
that's how you understand people who are on the periphery
or who've been othered.
It's so important to have a diverse cabinet.
But this you think in terms of policies
and what they can bring to the table,
or just also seeing on TV a diverse cabinet?
You know, I hope they can have an effect on policy.
I hope they can have an effect on the parties themselves,
as well as policy.
For me, it's about policy that makes people's lives better.
You have a memoir out.
Yeah.
Why put it down on paper?
You know, something about when you turn 50.
You know, something about when it's your fifth year,
fifth year at Vogue, you know?
I got married this year, you know,
I'm normally not someone who looks back all the time,
but it felt like the right time for me to do that.
And also, you know, I just felt that a lot
of young people sort of see people like you and I,
and they think, you know, we just got here
and we were always here.
And for me it was really important to share the story
of a journey about, you know, successes and failures.
And, you know, that's the reason why I got here.
So I just wanted to share that story
with sort of young people, as well as people
who, you know, feel like they're on the outskirts
of, you know, outside the industry, really.
Do you feel like an outsider?
I think I'll always feel like an outsider,
but as I said before, you know,
I grew up African
in an African household in England,
you know, different languages, different foods.
And then I'll go to school and I'll be in England.
So I've always been about duality.
I've always seen myself as an outsider but also an insider.
And even when, you know, I took the job at British Vogue,
I was the Black, gay, working-class outsider,
but you know, I'd been in the industry since I was 18.
So I was in essence an insider.
So really it's about the duality
that plays out in my life.
Well, who do you think made you the person you are today?
I know you left home twice, right?
Ghana, but also you had to leave your home.
Yes.
I mean, the person who made me who I am really is my mother.
I mean, I loved my mother.
She taught me about sort of beauty.
She taught me about clothes, about fashion.
She also taught me that beauty came in all forms.
That, you know, women were beautiful
no matter what shape they were,
no matter what color, what religion.
And so that really stayed with me,
and I guess that my creativity comes from her.
And of course I also had a military father,
so the idea of precision and organization
and sort of thinking ahead also comes from him.
So the best of both worlds, I'll say.
How did your father,
I know you had a difficult relationship with your father.
How did your father shape the person you are today?
It's so funny you should ask this question
because I never thought I was like my father growing up.
You know, I was very shy, very sensitive,
you know, a little spacey.
I prefer the company of women to men.
My dad was sort of, you know, authoritarian, disciplinarian.
You know, you had to be home at a certain time.
He ruled with an iron fist.
Yeah.
And I thought, you know, I'm never gonna be like him.
You know, he kicked me out of the house, you know,
when I was 18.
But I found out that over the years
when it comes to work and discipline
and sort of organization that
that is him to a tee.
So at some point, you lose your eyesight.
What was that like?
Yes.
Basically, I have sort of very high myopia
so I've never had great eyesight.
And I went through a series of sort of retinal detachments,
four to be exact.
And with each detachment,
I would sort of have to end up looking down in a contraption
for about three weeks and in a dark room.
And it was very harrowing.
It was very harrowing time in my life,
but I always say, you know, "You don't have to have vision
to have vision."
So in those dark rooms, my imagination was even bigger.
You know, I dreamt bigger.
And I came out of sort of the last surgery,
and the cover I did was for W Magazine with Rihanna
as the queen with a golden eye.
And now I look back at it, and I thought,
"Oh my god. There are the eyes subliminally."
So yes, it was very challenging.
And even to this day, you know, I go for checkups
to make sure my eyes are okay.
And they're great right now.
And you know, the more I look after myself,
the better I will get.
So when you look at all your covers,
and there's so many beautiful ones,
is there one that's special to you?
What did I say to someone?
"They're like my children."
We always have
our favorite child. I love them all.
But I'm especially proud of the covers we did in lockdown,
you know, when the world had essentially shut down.
You know, the teams were sort of scattered all around London
and I had to go back to the days of "i-D"
when, you know, you had to really create
and use your imagination.
And we had a series of four covers.
Judi Dench, when they said, you know,
anybody over 60 should stay at home.
The essential workers cover.
A cover of landscapes just so people could take a breather.
And the activists' cover when George Floyd was murdered.
And I really think we create covers
that, you know, in years time, people can look back
and see what the time that period was like.
For me, an artist always has to reflect their times
to paraphrase Nina Simone,
and that's really important for me.
I mean, there was a bit of controversy
with Linda Evangelista.
Yes.
Yes, I mean, you know, there was a complaint
that, oh, you know,
she should have looked a certain way, you know.
And for me, I've known Linda in the 90s.
I've known this incredible icon
who really defined what a model should be.
And I also saw my friend go through really dark days,
you know, due to the complications with surgery,
literally disappear from the world.
Really not the Linda the world knew.
So when we were doing this cover, it was a collaboration.
She wanted to be that Linda that everybody knew.
She wanted to feel good about herself again.
And I wasn't going to deny her that.
And also, you know, I would like to say,
whatever a woman wants to do with her body, it's up to her.
So, you know, I'm very proud of Linda
and I'm very proud of that cover.
Edward, I mean, you're almost like an activist.
Is that how you,
you're like a fashion activist
or a political fashion? I think I'm an activist soul
but I'm definitely a creative.
But you know, I've always believed, you know,
look at my life story in my book, you know?
Like I keep saying, I wasn't supposed to be here, you know?
Had my dad not left,
I don't know even what would've happened to my family.
So even when we ended up in a room, two rooms in Vauxhall,
six of us, we were so happy to be there,
penniless but so happy to be there.
So, you know, every day I'm an optimist.
And I know it's not the most fashionable thing,
but that's why I'm sitting here with you today.
Right?
Edward, thank you so much for your time today.
Thank you!