STEVE: IT HAS BEEN NEARLY
THREE MONTHS SINCE AMERICAN
FINANCIER AND ALLEGED SEX
TRAFFICKER JEFFREY EPSTEIN.
HIS DEATH RULED A SUICIDE
HERE IN NEW YORK BACK IN
AUGUST.
AINSLEY: OUR NEXT GUEST WAS
TAPPED BY EPSTEIN'S TEAM TO
OBSERVE THE AUTOPSY AND IS
HERE TO REVEAL THE FINDINGS
FROM HIS INVESTIGATION.
BRIAN: JOINING US RIGHT NOW
FORMER NEW YORK CITY MEDICAL
EXAMINER DR. MICHAEL BADEN.
IS HE A FORENSIC
PATHOLOGIST.
FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR AND
JOINS US RIGHT NOW FOR
EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW.
DR. BADEN, THANKS FOR BEING
HERE.
>> GOOD MORNING.
BRIAN: WHEN DID YOU REALIZE
THAT THE EPSTEIN FAMILY
NEEDED HELP?
>> WELL, I WAS ASKED BY THE
BROTHER, NEXT OF KIN, TO BE
AT THE AUTOPSY AND AT THE
AUTOPSY ON DAY ONE, THERE
WERE FINDINGS THAT WERE
USUAL FOR SUICIDAL HANGING
AND MORE CONSISTENT WITH
LIGATURE HOMICIDAL
STRANGULATION WHICH
INCLUDED.
STEVE: IT WAS SUGGESTED AT
THE TIME THAT HE COMMITTED
SUICIDE BY DOING, WHAT?
>> BY HANGING AT THE TIME HE
WAS FOUND ALLEGEDLY HANGING
BY A WHOM MADE LIGATURE OF
SHEETS.
AINSLEY: ARE YOU SAYING YOU
DON'T THINK IT WAS SUICIDE?
>> I THINK THAT THE EVIDENCE
POINTS TOWARDS HOMICIDE
RATHER THAN SUICIDE.
AINSLEY: WHY?
>> BECAUSE THERE ARE
MULTIPLE THREE FRACTURES IN
THE HYOID BONE, THE THYROID
CARTILAGE THAT ARE VERY
UNUSUAL FOR SUICIDE AND MORE
INDICATIVE OF STRANGULATION,
HOMICIDAL STRANGULATION.
STEVE: LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT
WHAT THE MEDICAL EXAMINER
STATED AFTER CAREFUL REVIEW
OF ALL THE INVESTIGATIVE
INFORMATION, INCLUDING
COMPLETE AUTOPSY FINDINGS,
THE DETERMINATION ON THE
DEATH OF EPSTEIN IS BELOW.
CAUSE, HANGING.
MANNER, SUICIDE.
YOU SAY THAT HIS FATAL
INJURIES ARE CONSISTENT WITH
HOMICIDE?
>> MORE CONSISTENT WITH
HOMICIDE AND, IN FACT, AT
THE TIME OF THE AUTOPSY, THE
DOCTOR DOING THE AUTOPSY
WASN'T -- DIDN'T THINK IT
WAS ENOUGH INFORMATION TO
SAY SUICIDE SO SHE PUT IT
PENDING FURTHER STUDY AND
THEN FOR SOME -- AND THE
FAMILY WANTS TO KNOW WHY WAS
IT CHANGED FROM PENDING
FURTHER STUDIES TO HOMICIDE
AFTERWARDS.
AINSLEY: IF YOU ARE THERE
WATCHING THEM PERFORM THIS
AUTOPSY, YOU NOTICE THESE
THREE BROKEN BONES AND YOU
BELIEVE IT WOULD BE
HOMICIDE.
THAT WOULD MEAN ANOTHER
PERSON WOULD HAVE GONE INTO
HIS CELL, STRANGLED HIM.
DID HE HAVE ANY SIGNS OF
TRYING TO FIGHT BACK?
>> WELL, THEY TOOK FINGER
NAIL CLIPPING TO SEE IF
THERE IS ANYBODY ELSE'S
D.N.A. ON IT.
AND THAT HASN'T BEEN
RELEASED.
NEITHER HAS THE INFORMATION
ABOUT WHOSE D.N.A. IS ON THE
LIGATURE.
LIGATURE MADE OUT OF TORN
STRIPS OF ORANGE SHEETS.
AND WHOEVER MADE IT, HAD TO
HAVE A LOT OF D.N.A. ON IT.
AND THE BROTHER HAS BEEN
ASKING THAT FROM DAY ONE.
BRIAN: SO WAIT A SECOND.
YOU ARE SAY WHOEVER MADE IT
HAS TO HAVE A LOT OF D.N.A.
ON IT AND THERE WAS?
>> NONE AT ALL WE DON'T KNOW
WHO EXAMINED IT.
BRIAN: YOU SAY WHEN YOU LEFT
THE EXAMINATION ROOM THEY
WEREN'T SURE WHAT HAPPENED.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
BRIAN: YOU KNOW THIS
PROCEDURE.
WHAT HAPPENED IN THE INTERIM
TO GET THIS SUCH A BLUNT
CONCLUSION?
>> A WEEK LATER, IT WAS
CHANGED TO HOMICIDE.
THE BROTHER WANTS TO KNOW
WHAT DID THEY GET NEW IN
THAT WEEK TO MAKE IT
HOMICIDE.
BRIAN: WHAT'S YOUR ANSWER TO
THAT?
>> WE DON'T KNOW.
IT'S 80 DAYS NOW.
AND THE BROTHER FEELS HE IS
GETTING THE RUN AROUND.
AND TO ADD TO IT, THERE WAS
A TOTAL BREAKDOWN IN
SECURITY.
THE VIDEO CAMERAS DIDN'T
WORK.
THE GUARDS WENT TO SLEEP.
THE.
STEVE: WHAT ABOUT THAT GUY
WHO WAS IN THE CELL WITH HIM
EARLIER WHERE IT WAS
SUGGESTED THAT THAT GUY
TRIED TO KILL HIM?
>> HE HAD A NEW ROOMMATE NOW
BECAUSE SUICIDE WATCH.
DIFFERENT ROOMMATE.
THAT ROOMMATE WAS PULLED
AWAY A DAY OR TWO BEFORE SO
THAT THERE WAS NO ROOMMATE
WITH HIM.
NO SUICIDE WATCH.
NO SECURITY GUARDS, NO
VIDEOTAPES THAT WERE
WORKING.
DID THE FBI ABLE TO GET THE
INFORMATION FROM THE VIDEO.
AINSLEY: I KNOW YOU WERE
HIRED BACK IN THE 70'S TO DO
THIS AS YOUR JOB.
YOU REALLY INVESTIGATED
DEATHS IN PRISON AFTER THE
RITE AND ALL
RIOT AND ALL THESE PRISONERS
DIED.
WHAT ARE THE CHANCES NOT
BEING CHECKED ON 3:30 TO
6:30 FINDING HIS BODY AND
TWO PRISON GUARDS FALLING
ASLEEP.
>> EXTREMELY UNLIKELY.
NEVER SEEN N 50 YEARS ALL
DEATHS THAT OCCUR IN PRISONS
IN NEW YORK STATE.
NEVER HAD TWO GUARDS FALL
ASLEEP AT THE SAME TIME ALL
THE VIDEO DOESN'T WORK.
THE ISSUE WOULD BE DID
SOMEBODY COME IN AND CAUSE
HIS DEATH?
STEVE: WHAT ABOUT THE
SUGGESTION YOU MAY BE BIASED
BECAUSE YOU WERE HIRED BY
THE FAMILY?
>> THAT'S ALWAYS A SITUATION
EXCEPT THAT GOVERNOR
ROCKEFELLER AFTER ATTICUS
SET UP A SPECIAL BOARD TO
LOOK INTO ALL DEATHS IN NEW
YORK PRISONS BECAUSE CONCERN
POLICE MEDICAL EXAMINERS AND
GUARDS WERE BIASED WHEN THE
INMATES COMPLAINED THAT
DEATHS WERE BEING COVERED UP
AND WE HAVE A SEPARATE BOARD
THAT LOOKS INTO ALL THESE
DEATHS.
BRIAN: DR. BADEN WHAT I
DON'T UNDERSTAND IS IF
EVERYBODY WANTS THE SAME
THING, THE TRUTH, THE
BROTHER SHOULDN'T BE
FIGHTING ANYTHING.
THEY SHOULD BE INTERVIEWING
YOU AND SAYING TELL ME ABOUT
WHAT YOU HAVE.
HAVE PEOPLE INVESTIGATING
THIS CASE PRIOR TO THEM
RULING IT A SUICIDE,
CONTACTED YOU.
>> NOT AT ALL.
NONE.
BRIAN: DO YOU FIND THAT
STRANGE?
>> YES.
ASK THE ATTORNEY GENERAL IS
INVESTIGATING THE CAUSE OF
DEATH AS THEY ARE DOING THE
SECURITY ON THIS ISSUE.
SOMEBODY SHOULD HAVE BEEN
INVESTIGATING EVERYBODY WHO
HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE
AUTOPSY.
BRIAN: SURE.
AINSLEY: IF THERE WAS A
PRISONER WHO WENT IN AND
STRANGLED HIM THE D.N.A. IS
ON THAT.
>> LIGATURE.
AINS THE BED SHEETS.
WOULDN'T IT BE EASY TO TRACK
DOWN WHO THAT PERSON WAS.
>> ABSOLUTELY.
ABSOLUTELY.
THAT'S THE FIRST THING.
THE MEDICAL EXAMINER AT THE
TIME OF THE FIRST AUTOPSY
DID SWABS ALL THE CLOTHING
FOR D.N.A., BUT WHO HAD THE
LIGATURE.
AINSLEY: WHO HAS THAT
INFORMATION?
WHY ISN'T THAT BEING
RELEASED?
>> THAT'S WHAT THE BROTHER
WANTS TO KNOW.
THAT'S WHY THEY ASKED ME TO
COME HERE.
STEVE: YOU ARE CALLING ON
THE STATE TO FIGURE OUT
WHOSE D.N.A. IS ON THAT?
>> NOT THE STATE,
UNFORTUNATELY.
THIS IS A FEDERAL PRISON.
SO THE STATE HAS NOTHING.
THE FBI USUALLY
INVESTIGATES -- WOULD BE
INVESTIGATING IT.
AND THE BROTHER WANTS TO
KNOW ONE, DID THE FBI GET
AHOLD OF THAT LIGATURE AND,
TWO, IT ONLY TAKE AS COUPLE
DAYS TO DO THE D.N.A.
WHAT'S THE RESULTS?
BRIAN: DR. BADEN, I KNOW YOU
ARE JUST SOMEBODY WHO LOOKS
AT A SITUATION CUT AND DRY.
I'M LOOKING AT D.N.A.
LOOKING AT HARD FACTS.
HOW IMPORTANT, IN YOUR
INVESTIGATION CONCLUSION IS
HIS MIND SET PRIOR TO
SUICIDE?
AND THE FACT THAT HE HAD
PLANNED AFTERWARDS AND THAT
HE SPENT SO MUCH TIME WITH
HIS LAWYERS THE DAY BEFORE.
>> YES.
YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.
THE GREAT MAJORITY OF PEOPLE
WHO COMMIT SUICIDE GIVE
WARNING SIGNS AHEAD.
NOW, ONE OF THE WARNING
SIGNS COULD HAVE BEEN THE
INCIDENT JULY 23RD WHEN HE
SAID.
THE ROOMMATE ASSAULTED HIM
AND THE GUARDS SAID IT WAS
SUICIDE ATTEMPT.
AND THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN
WATCHING HIM.
THEY DIDN'T WATCH HIM,
ACCORDING TO THE GUARDS,
ACCORDING TO HIS LAWYERS AT
THAT TIME.
HE WAS IN GOOD MOOD.
HE WAS STILL WAITING FOR A
DECISION WHETHER HE CAN GET
OUT ON BAIL.
THAT HADN'T COME YET.
STEVE: HE HAD SO MANY
VICTIMS.
I THINK IT THE VICTIMS
REALLY DESERVE TO KNOW WHAT
HAPPENED.
>> YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.
A LOT OF THINGS HAPPENED.
ALSO THE BROTHER IS
CONCERNED THAT IF HE WAS
MURDERED THEN OTHER PEOPLE
WHO HAVE INFORMATION MIGHT
BE AT RISK, IN JEOPARDY.
BRIAN: LOOK, THE HEART
DOESN'T GO OUT WITH THIS
GUY.
THIS GUY SEEMS LIKE JUST A
TERRIBLE PERSON, USED HIS
POWER AND MANIPULATION,
ABILITY FOR EVIL MEANS.
I GET IT?
>> RIGHT.
BRIAN: BUT THERE ARE SO MANY
PEOPLE WHO ARE IMPLICATED IN
HIS WEB OF UGLINESS, YOU
WONDER, YOU WONDER IF THIS
PLAYS A ROLE.
THE POWERFUL PEOPLE THAT HIS
ANTICS AFFECTED AND WOULD
HAVE BEEN AFFECTED HAD HE
LIVED.
>> YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.
THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS
THAT THE BROTHER THINKS AS
WELL.
IF THEY THINK HE HAS
INFORMATION THAT HIS LIFE
COULD BE IN JEOPARDY.
AINSLEY: WHAT DOES THE
BROTHER TELL YOU HE THINKS
HAPPENED?
>> HE THINKS HE WANTS TO
FIND THE ANSWER TO.
HE THINKS THAT HIS BROTHER
WASN'T TYPE TO COMMIT
SUICIDE BUT HE HASN'T BEEN
ABLE TO GET INFORMATION.
BRIAN: HOW HARD IS IT TO
COMMIT SUICIDE IN PRISON.
>> VERY EASY.
BUT, FIRST, IN THIS
SITUATION IF I
SITUATION HF I
SITUATION HE I
SITUATION HE TOOK THE SHEETS
TAKEN A HALF HOUR TO MAKE
THE LIGATURE.
ONCE YOU ARE HANGING IT'S
ABOUT FIVE MINUTES OR SO YOU
CAN HAVE -- BE NEAR DEAD.
STEVE: DR. BADEN, YOU KNOW,
IF THE SUPPOSITION IS THAT
IT WAS A HOMICIDE.
THAT WOULD MEAN COPS WERE IN
ON IT, YOU KNOW, WHO OPENED
THE DOOR?
WHO MOVED THE CAMERAS, ALL
OF IT.
AINSLEY: WAS IT SOMEONE ONS
OUTSIDE OR INSIDE JOB?
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
STEVE: THAT'S A TERRIBLE
ALLEGATION.
>> WELL, WHY WERE TWO GUARDS
ASLEEP IN 50 YEARS OF
LOOKING AT DEATHS IN NEW
YORK STATE, OCCASIONALLY A
GUARD FALLS ASLEEP.
>> NEVER TWO GUARDS AT THE
SAME TIME.
THE CELL, THE CAMERA IN THE
CELL WATCHING DIDN'T WORK.
THE CAMERA IN THE HALLWAY TO
SEE IF ANYBODY CAME IN AND
OUT OF HIS CELL DIDN'T WORK.
THIS IS BIZARRE.
HIS ROOMMATE WAS TAKEN AWAY
SO HE WAS ALL BY HIMSELF.
SUICIDE WATCH WAS TAKEN
AWAY.
YEAH, THE ISSUE YOU BRING UP
HAS TO BE INVESTIGATE YOU
HAD.
DOESN'T MEAN THIS IS
HOMICIDE BUT CERTAINLY IT
DESERVES INVESTIGATION AND
THE BROTHER IS CONCERNED
THERE IS NO INVESTIGATION.
AINSLEY: HAVE YOU EVER SEEN
ANYONE THAT COMMITTED
SUICIDE AND WAS HANGING
THEMSELVES WITH THOSE THREE
BROKEN BONES?
>> NO.
HANGING DOES NOT CAUSE THESE
BROKEN BONES AND HOMICIDE
DOES.
USUALLY TWO BONES, EVEN
THREE IS A HUGE AMOUNT OF
PRESSURE WAS APPLIED.
BRIAN: HOW DIFFERENT IS THIS
FOR ANYONE LET ALONE HIGH
PROFILE PRISON.
>> 800 OTHER PEOPLE IN THE
CORRECTION FACILITY AND MOST
OF THEM WOULD HAVE LIKENED
TO HAVE GOTTEN THEIR HANDS
ON HIM ONE BECAUSE OF SEXUAL
THINGS, TWO TO MAKE A NAME
FOR THEMSELVES.
THREE, BECAUSE SOMEBODY PUT
THEM UP TO IT.
YOU ARE RIGHT THOUGH, A
NUMBER OF PEOPLE HAD TO BE
INVOLVED IF THIS IS A
HOMICIDE.
STEVE: DR. BADEN, THANK YOU
VERY MUCH.
HE JUST SAID THAT THE FATAL
INJURIES ARE CONSISTENT WITH
HOMICIDE.
AND YOU HAVE ALSO CALLED ON
THE FEDS TO FIGURE OUT WHOSE
D.N.A. IS ON THAT THING THAT
HE HUNG HIMSELF WITH IF HE
HUNG HIMSELF.
DR. BADEN THANK YOU VERY