Welcome Rowan! This is the Wakefield Tower
Part of the Medieval Palace in the Tower of London
And I wanted to meet you here because one of the key figures
In queer royal history is Edward II
And he'd have used this space when he stayed at the Tower.
So when you say one of the key figures of queer royal history
What do you mean by that? What was the history of him and his life?
A key part of his biography is his relationship with two male favourites
The main one being a man called Piers Gaveston
And because you're looking a long way back in time
There's been a lot of debate over the years
About what that relationship was
But a big idea is that it was a love relationship
And also possibly a physical relationship between these two men.
Do you think it's, I guess, the importance in general
For Britain, for example, for us to know our history
But specifically for queer people is there a significance
For modern queer people to know about historical figures?
I think it's really important for people to know where they've come from
To know what their heritage is.
It's a way of anchoring yourself
It's a way of working out why you're here today
And why society is as it is today.
And I don't think you can understand the place of queer people
In society today without understanding
That very long history that got us to where we are now.
So what would that look like in terms of
If you were looking for an artefact or a source of some kind
What kind of sources would you be looking for
If you were looking back? Would it be writings
Would it be art? How would you start to dig in
And figure out what was a part of this queer history?
Well because queer lives are really integral to human society
The evidence can be found in lots of different places.
And as you've just said they can be found in written records
It can be found in art as well, and it can even be found
In the architecture of the palaces, for instance, that we look after.
Very often queer history can be found in legal records
And this perhaps is why the evidence is often skewed
To men, so it's often easier to find queer histories
That involve men because sex between men was a criminal offence
So it finds its way into the legal records, certainly in this country.
We don't have legal records for sex between women
In this country in the same way, though if you look
In Europe at the same time, say 16th, 17th, 18th centuries,
You'll find legal records there because the authorities
Did prosecute women who had sex with other women.
So legal records is part of it, but legal records only really
Tell us when things went wrong,
When a charge was brought against another person
Or where two people were discovered.
And so what we can lose sight of if we just rely on legal records
Is the huge range of queer experience.
One thing I say over and over again when I'm thinking
About queer history, talking about queer history
Is we can't just look for sex.
And there is this feeling with historians that you can't say
Someone is queer in the past unless you find evidence
Of them having sex with somebody of the same gender.
And my argument with that is how often
When you have sex do you go and write it down
On a piece of parchment and then put it in the archive
To last for all time? It's just not how people work!
So we need to look for other evidence as well
When we're looking for queer lives, because we know
That there's so much more to queer lives than sex
It's about who you are, it's about your place in society.
And relationships – any relationship – is based on a lot more
Than sex; it's about friendship, it's about shared feeling
A shared sense of humour, even. It's about love.
So we need to look for records of that in the past.
So I've said it before but I really do think there's something
Interesting about the way in which we look at queer men's history
As being recorded in court documents and medical records
And then you have queer women's history that's almost
Letters and diaries by candlelight.
And both of them end up with something missing, I think
From the picture, because you have queer men's stories
That, you're absolutely right, feel indisputable
In terms of "this person was literally by a court of law
Found to be homosexual", but you don't necessarily get
That person's emotional life, their personality,
Their thoughts and feelings about even what was happening
To them when those court records were being created.
But then on the other hand you have women for example
That were writing letters to each other that are full of
affection and love, but you always have these people being like
"Well it wasn't proven, was it"
"Really good friends, weren't they"
"That was just how people talked to each other back then"
And so there's always this invalidation in a lot of ways.
And I guess the way I like to think about it, in terms of
If people are like "you can't tell 100% that a figure in history
Was queer", and I'm like, well if that's true then we can't
Tell 100% if anyone in history was straight, to be honest.
If you have this much evidence and you're still going to deny it
Then you can't say anything for certain about anyone at that point.
So they say that history is written by the victors
And I think that that can be obviously in battle or in war
The country or the force that wins imposes
What they want onto the place that they've conquered
But I also think that there is a "social victory"
That informs history, so who are the people that have
The privilege to be literate in the time that they're living
That they can record things down in writing?
More recently they might have cameras or video equipment
That they can record themselves in that way
They can pay to have art done of them, or even just
They have the luxury of enough time to be recording their lives.
And I think that that goes for anyone in history
For any identity, but there is something specific about queerness
Where you also potentially have this gap
With people who have enough social privilege
To be able to feel like they have some kind of safety
In admitting, or writing down or recording in any way
This thing that is taboo or illegal or is persecuted in some way.
Do you think that the artefacts of history and the evidence
Of queer history that we have are informed by these elements of privilege?
Absolutely: privilege and class and wealth
Is a huge factor in this as well.
Obviously I mainly look at palaces
Which were lived in by kings and queens!
Where you have a huge amount of written evidence that survives
From them and also that other people wrote down
So people observe monarchs and write about them
And that's a great source of evidence.
But we also do get little glimpses sometimes
Of these less privileged people.
Another example of where you can take a legal record and
Apply it to someone who we know would have been at the Tower
Is the case of Kathleen Woodhouse
Which I only discovered the other day.
Kathleen was brought before a Magistrates' Court in 1918
Accused of being a deserter.
They were also known by the name of Frederick Wright
So the court accused them of adopting women's clothes
To desert the Army.
Yet when you look at the reporting of the court case
You realise that Kathleen wants to be known as Kathleen,
Wishes she'd been born a woman
And loves wearing dresses because that reflects
The life she wants to lead.
And then when you realise that Kathleen was part of the Royal Fusiliers
Which is the regiment that since the 17th century has been
Based at the Tower, you can see how you can take
A little legal record, and you can apply it to
And realise it is a part of the history of somewhere
Like the Tower of London.
I mean, it kind of goes without saying I guess, but there's
In terms of these intersecting identities that go across each other
Not only do we have, in general, within a class system
Some people who were not traditionally educated,
Didn't have access to education, and then women on top
Of that, less likely, I think you also have examples of
Race, for example: people who weren't white in this country
If we look at the ways in which they've been structurally oppressed
That then maps onto when you have queer people of colour
How little their stories are necessarily told
Or preserved in a lot of ways
So I think it's really interesting that when trying to dig through
You're almost... you have these people who on multiple levels
Have had their histories erased or seen as unimportant
Enough to document. So it is really difficult I think
To go back into history and try to find these people
Who have been hidden in the cracks, almost.
And, I had a colleague say to me the other day
"Hidden histories", and I was like no, forcibly
Obscured histories, actually!
One of our key figures for queer history
At Hampton Court Palace and especially at Kensington Palace
Because those were centres of the Georgian court
Is Lord Hervey.
And he had a 10 year relationship with a man called Steve Fox.
And it's also thought that he may have had a close relationship
With Frederick, Prince of Wales, so he's the son of George II
And the father of George III.
But we don't know, because although Hervey leaves us
Fantastic, and quite gossipy and bitchy written records
Of life at the Georgian court, and lots of letters
Just as this relationship between Frederick, Prince of Wales and
Lord Hervey looks like it's getting interesting
A censorious 19th-century Hervey – so one of Hervey's descendents
Cut the pages out. So quite literally
There is a gap there in history.
Now that might have been a bit of an own-goal for that
19th-century Hervey, because nowadays people read
Whatever they want to into that gap
But that is a great example, actually, of history being erased.
And one of my favourite queer historians Clare Barlow
Has said that queer history is basically full of bonfires.
That so often we know that there was a piece of evidence
And we know when it was destroyed
By, usually, family members who see that having
A queer person in their family past is shameful.
So to preserve their family name and honour
Literally destroy that record and that history
And as a historian that breaks my heart.
I wanted to ask you: on the flip-side
We talked about the idea of if we have this records
Whose records aren't we having... Why do you think people
Because when I talked to people about the fact that I was going
To do this this video there were multiple people who asked
"Oh can you ask them about gay monarchs?"
"Is that a thing? Was that a thing?"
It was a thing, definitely!
Conclusive, it definitely was a thing!
But I think it's interesting. Why do we have such an interest
In the idea of proving that we had
Like, why is it somehow more important for a gay monarch
Than just anyone being gay in the 17th century?
And in part I think that is just because of this
Idea of class which is very embedded in society.
The idea of "look this important person was queer!"
Therefore "queer" and "important" feel like they
Historically can be linked together.
Would you like to see more queer history being taught
In schools, for example?
Well, it's a long time since I've been in school
And a long time since I studied history in school!
So I'm not quite sure what is taught nowadays
But as we've been saying, queer lives are so integral
To history and to human experience, that they should be.
If you're learning about history you should learn about queer lives
And so many periods of history or people in history
Don't make sense unless you talk about their queer relationships
Or their queer identities.
And it's also important to remember here that there are
Age-appropriate ways of doing that, as well.
That sexuality and queer idenitity aren't just about sex.
They're about love and relationships.
People are taught in school about Henry VIII and his six wives
And if that is not an example of extreme heterosexuality
And unbelievable misogyny I don't know what is
And if you can talk about Henry VIII and his relationships
Why not talk about romantic relationships
Between people of the same sex?
But I spend a lot of my time thinking about the past
And trying to work out what life was like in the past
But what do you think about these issues today
And where we're going?
I do see a lot of – I think always when there's progress
There's backlash, and I think we see that all the time.
Where a step will be taken forwards and because
That particular marginalised group, whether it's queer people
Or any other, has previously been relegated to the shadows
As soon as they come forward and ask for equality
There will be a lot of people who see that ask as an ask
For superiority in some way, or an ask for more than they deserve
Whether or not they would necessarily phrase it like that
Or think about it like that.
That if you make a fuss then it's almost hanging over your head
If you behave well, if you don't make a fuss, then we'll let you be.
So I think it's really important to not lose that rebellious spirit
Not just in terms of identity and how you express yourself
But also in terms of saying "who else can we have solidarity with?"
"What other queer communities around the world can we support?"
What ways can we rebel against the status quo
That for so many years said that we weren't worthy
To get married, and our relationships were... Section 28 said
"Pretended family relationships", for example, which was so recently
That we can say "well, who else is having that kind of
Rhetoric around them".
So, at the moment I think the way in which trans people
Are being talked about in the mainstream is very indicative
Of how gay people were talked about in the mainstream.
And so I think that there is something still quite
Radical within those roots to look at other people and say
How can we use what we've had to go through and the tactics
We've used in order to get equality to help other people.
So, I don't necessarily... I think there is a value in allowing people
To be themselves and to have that individuality
And liberation, but I also think that coming together as
A group we can do some really exciting radical stuff together.
And I think, while perhaps modern life might feel confusing
That's something where historians come in, actually
And I think you do see people start talking
About history, and then they start relating it to today, and their own lives.
So by providing the long view, which is what historians and
Curators do, you can
Help people to make connections.
Amazing, thank you so much for talking to me!
This has been very interesting.
Thank you so much for coming in! Thank you.