- Hey guys, it's Alex and Patrick with another TFB TV video.
Today we've got some special guests on the program,
that's gonna be Ian McCollum on my right
from Forgotten Weapons and InRange TV,
and Nathaniel F on my far left, from thefirearmblog.com,
one of our great writers that produces
some really great content for the website.
Anyways, since we have these guys here, we thought
we might do a video that kindly might rub some people
the wrong way, but we thought might be
an interesting topic of discussion.
- Yeah, something a little bit different.
- Something a little bit different,
and that's gonna be, we all picked a gun that is
generally regarded as a well made good gun,
that we don't particularly like for one reason or another.
We all picked one and we're gonna go down the list
and explain why we don't really care for
that particular firearm,
and if it's OK with you Ian, I'd like to start with you.
- Sure, you bet.
I'll piss off lots of people to start off.
(laughs)
The one gun that really jumps out at me
is something that most people like
that I just (sighs) don't.
It's the HK91.
I think, to me, I don't like the length of pole,
I don't like the handling, it feels really long, bulky,
heavy to me.
I think the triggers pretty much always suck.
I don't really like the safety,
I can't operate it very well.
Of course, I'm left handed and HK
put the charging handle on the 91
and many of their guns, way out here up on the front,
and it's awkward to get to and I don't like it.
And for some reason,
I don't dislike 308 self-loading rifles.
I have a little tanker M1 that's just fantastic to shoot,
but I'll tell ya what, that HK,
just the recoil feels really harsh.
It's not pleasant to shoot, I don't like it,
I don't enjoy it.
I've shot enough of them now that if someone,
you know, comes up with one, they're like,
"Hey! You wanna shoot this HK91?"
I just go, "No, no, I really don't."
(chuckles)
And ya know, it's funny because I can totally
appreciate the history of the gun.
I love the mechanics of the gun.
The roller lock mechanism is brilliant
and really interesting and cool.
MP5s are fine guns to shoot.
And HK33s are not that bad, just that 91, man.
It seems to me that every single bit of it
is just kinda blah.
- That's an interesting choice,
and I can understand for a left-handed person
that being a very fair assessment especially.
- I can almost feel the anger being directed at you, Alex.
(laughing)
- Oh Alex, and I'm sure for everyone out there
who loves HK, there's lots of you and--
- Well, you don't gotta like everything they make.
Lord knows I don't.
They make some good products, some products I don't--
- Well, that's the other thing.
There's nothing bad about the build of HK91.
It's a very well-made rifle.
Just don't like it. - Fair enough, fair enough.
Nathaniel, since you're also our guest,
why don't you explain your choice.
- The firearm that immediately jumped out to me was
the Kel-Tec KSG.
Kel-Tec's reputation for having
shoddy quality control aside,
the KSG, while kind of an innovative idea,
I feel like its purpose is,
it's sort of schizophrenic in it's purpose,
like trying to take a shot gun and turn it into something
that shotguns aren't necessarily as good at,
but that carbines might be better at.
And then it's, I just don't think it's safe.
I've shot a lot of pump-action shot guns,
I've shot KSG about twice,
and the back-forward pump-action combined with
the lack of any soft of hand stop
that's intervaled with a hand guard or anything like that,
I just don't think that's a good idea.
- You know, safety's a very valid reason
to not like a firearm.
If you don't feel safe shooting that firearm,
then don't take a chance, I mean,
that's always the safe bet, no pun intended.
- I can see what Kel-Tec was going for.
- Yeah. - Had it been executed
a little bit more safety-minded maybe.
- Yeah.
- You know, a couple of changes,
it could've been a pretty darn good gun, I think.
- Yeah, I think if they had molded in
some kind of hand stop--
- It's not hard to put a hand stop on.
- Now if it had been semi-auto or something--
- That's another thing, maybe some KSG owners can tell us
what you've done to hopefully avoid that,
maybe put your mind at ease, I'd like to know that,
having very limited amount of experience on it.
- Right, I mean, something even as simple--
- Pro tip, pro tip, shooting your fingers off
ruins your day. - I would imagine that.
- I've heard that too.
- But Patrick, how 'bout yourself?
- Oh, I'm gonna have to go with the HS2000,
or the Springfield XD, the classic XDs.
Every time I shoot one, I am a handgun guy,
I like 'em a lot.
I may not be a very good shot with one, but I do enjoy them.
Every time I shoot one, I never come away from the range
with a smile on my face.
They're just kinda blah.
There's some really funky characteristics about it,
like the slide's very chunky, it's very large.
And I think it contributes to the perceived recoil
of the firearm.
It's just kinda eh.
Like, I understand what they were going for.
I like glocks, like M&Ps.
I even like the Ruger SR-Series and--
- There's a certain something
you can't quite put your finger on that you can't
assimilate to the XD2?
- There's definitely something about just that kinda
x-factor of a gun that sometimes they're
just a lot of fun, even if they're crappy, low end guns,
they're something that's just a lot of fun to shoot.
And there are just some guns that just
utterly fail to have that.
- Right, and you know, another factor that's kinda funny
is SNF Valley do a lot of transfers
and a lot of people say, "Well, I bought the Springfield
"over the Glock because I like my handguns
"made in America."
- Fail. (laughs)
- And you have to kindly point out,
"Well sir did you know it's got Made in Croatia on the top?"
"No, this is Springfield.
"Springfield's a good old American brand."
- Yeah, all right.
- And those of you that don't know,
it's actually a Croatian pistol.
It was branded as the HS2000 originally.
Springfield found it, made a few changes to it,
and then sold it in America.
- Yeah, and we've tested 'em.
You don't hate them, you're just kinda like--
- No, I don't, I don't hate them.
I just don't like them. - Right.
- If I were to hand you one and go,
"Hey, you wanna shoot my new XD?"
- I would probably do it because I don't turn down
shooting things generally. - Right.
- But I-- - You take the ammo out
and shoot it in something else?
- Probably. (laughing)
No, I mean, I would shoot it, and you know,
I'd probably not really enjoy it that much.
It's just something about how it was designed,
how it was built, and how it was marketed.
It was marketed as a direct competitor to the Glock,
and, you know, the M&P style of pistol.
And, I don't think it really was the pistol
to go ahead and compete directly with them.
- OK. - Fair enough, fair enough.
Well, I guess it's my turn. - Yeah.
- Yeah. - Who do you wanna piss off?
- Golly.
- OK, prepare yourself, Internet.
- Yeah well, this isn't gonna be that controversial,
I don't think so, but
so anyways, I bought into the hype train
when all the DeVore was comin' in
because I'd heard the guys in Canada
singin' the praises of the rifle,
and I could not wait to get my hands on one.
They look awesome.
Nathaniel, you have an interesting bit of trivia
on this gun actually that I found pretty interesting.
- Yeah, actually, one of the little facts about it
is that the aesthetics were designed before the internals,
they sort of put internals into this outline
that they had drawn up.
- You know, from a design perspective, it seems kinda--
- Backwards?
- Yeah. (laughing)
To design a gun's aesthetics before you design
anything else, and-- - Does look good though.
- It's not a cosmetic, but--
- No, it is a very sexy rifle.
- Well, it's a cool looking gun,
and that's part of the reason I was like,
"Wow, that's somethin' else, it's very space age looking."
- And it's Israeli. - It's Israeli.
- Pretty much anything Israelis make
is really pretty impressive.
- Absolutely. - I'll agree with that.
- I've got a Galil ARM, it's a fantastic rifle.
I've got some of the pistols,
the Jericho and stuff like that.
Love 'em, and the Uzis, probably one of my all-time favorite
sub-machine guns, so I was like,
"How could they go wrong?"
A DeVore, that's gonna be a home run,
and I saw the YouTube guys sayin' like,
"Oh I really like it."
And for those guys, maybe it really works well.
But for me, I found it rear heavy and awkward.
I don't like how the safety selector
doesn't really have a positive click
whenever you go from safe to fire.
And, things like, you can't change the barrel
like you can on an AUG, and the AUG is actually priced
at the same price point,
really irked me, if you want a left-handed bolt installed,
you have to ship the rifle off to get it installed
which, Ian you're left-handed, if I handed my right-handed
DeVore to you, you'd have trouble without--
- No, just give me the HK91.
(laughing) I don't wanna eat the brass.
- Yeah, the brass'll get ya pretty good.
But, that's the reason I had buyer's remorse on that gun.
- Let's not forget, if you put an optic on it,
your optic's about a foot above your bore.
- That's right, it doesn't cowitness right with the--
- No it doesn't.
- Oh, let's also remember that that mag release is so big
and easy to operate that sometimes
you do it unintentionally.
- That's right.
You said you've seen a lot of guys--
- Not a lot, but we've seen that happen a couple times
at the two gun match.
You get up from a position and bump that mag release
and don't realize it, and by the time you
get to your new position, fire one shot
and discover you've got no magazine left
'cause it's back over there.
- That's unfortunate. (laughs)
Hey, if anybody has experience with the DeVore
while serving in the military, we'd love to hear
if that's actually a serious problem,
or if that's just something that us civilians experience
while we're kind of doing civilian gun-type stuff.
- Yeah, that's an issue that's really surprising to see
come out of an Israeli military firearm.
- It is, they generally think everything
that they put into the field
and through a pretty good bureaucracy
that makes sure it works right, and ya know,
the Galil's a perfect example of that.
- Yeah, I mean usually Trifecta's, like Ian said, very good.
But you made a statement earlier that you said that if
given the choice between a AUG and a DeVore,
that you'd take the AUG.
- Take the AUG every time, 10 times outta 10.
And we might do a video on that, it's been done,
kinda been beaten to death. - Right.
- But another perspective can't hurt.
- No, yeah and I don't have a lot of experience
with the DeVore, but I do have a fair bit of experience
with the AUG and I really do like that rifle a lot.
- Yeah.
- So I'm really intrigued to see how the DeVore shapes up.
If your grievances are as apparent to me as they are to you.
- Yeah, absolutely.
And I think that would be a good assessment.
In a perfect world we'd have all four of our guns together,
and we could see, get everyone's reaction on the
in slow motion camera while we're shooting them.
(laughing)
- Yeah, I uh-- - And a twisted up face.
- I don't think anybody has a KSG, nobody has an XD,
and the other two who got covered--
- Yeah, the other two we've got covered.
- Yeah unfortunately.
- But, anyways guys, so that's our "Four Guns We're
Not Really Fond Of, But Aren't Necessarily Bad" video.
I don't know how to title this video,
otherwise I'm sure there's a title
above my head right now that makes more sense
than what I just said. (laughs)
But anyways, thanks for watching TFB TV.
We'd also like to thank you guys for comin'.
- Thank you. - Also check out
Ian's channel, he's got Forgottenweapons.com
as well as a fantastic YouTube channel, and he's featured on
Full 30, right?
We're gonna go ahead and throw a link right up here.
Check that out, I know I will.
And, thanks to our sponsors Ventura Munitions
and Grizzly Targets.
Anyways, this is Alex and Patrick,
and Ian and Nathaniel with TFB TV.
Thank you for watching.