JOINING US TO DISCUSS IS THE SENIOR FELLOW AT THE BROOKINGS
INSTITUTION. EVERY NOW AND THEN, PEOPLE GET
CAUGHT TELLING THE TRUTH. WAS THAT THE CASE HERE?
>> I DOUBT IT WAS AN UNPREPARED REMARK.
CHINESE DIPLOMATS WOULD NOT SAY THINGS LIKE THAT IF THEY
THOUGHT THEY COULDN'T. THAT REFLECTS PRUDENCE POSITION
THAT NONE OF THESE COUNTRIES ARE TRULY SOVEREIGN.
THE ONLY TEASER HERE IS DID THE AMBASSADOR MEAN RUSSIA BECAUSE
IT IS A POST SOVIET STATE. I DON'T THINK THAT'S WHAT HE
MEANT IN THESE REMARKS. ANNMARIE:
THANK YOU FOR JOINING US. DID EMMANUEL MACRON OPEN UP
THIS KIND OF RHETORIC GIVEN XI JINPING IS VIEWING HIS TRIP TO
CHINA AS A MASSIVE COUP? ANGELA: YES.
THE FACT THAT MACRON WENT THERE AND TALKED ABOUT STRATEGIC
AUTONOMY FOR EUROPE AND SAID EUROPE SHOULDN'T NECESSARILY DO
WHAT THE U.S. DOES IN THESE CONFLICTS, HE
CAME AWAY ANNOYING MOST OF THE OTHER EUROPEAN UNION COUNTRIES
BECAUSE OF WHAT HE APPEARED TO HAVE CONCEDED TO XI JINPING.
SO I THINK HE PROBABLY DID OPEN IT UP FOR THAT. JOE:
I SAID WHAT'S UP, BUT IT WAS A WE CHAT ACCOUNT WHERE THE
TRANSCRIPTS HAD BEEN POSTED. ISN'T THAT WHAT PRESIDENT XI
JINPING IS LIKELY SAYING WHEN HE MEETS WITH FOREIGN LEADERS?
ANGELA: I WOULD THINK SO. WE KNOW HE AND PUTIN SPENT FOUR
HOURS WHEN HE WENT TO MOSCOW WITH THEIR INTERPRETERS.
ONE WONDERS WHAT THEY DISCUSSED THERE.
THAT MAKES ONE QUESTION WHETHER CHINA COULD BE A MEDIATOR IN
THE RUSSIA-UKRAINE CONFLICT IF THOSE ARE HIS VIEWS. ANNMARIE:
ALSO XI JINPING HAS YET TO CALL THE LODI MAYOR ZELENSKYY,
ALTHOUGH HE DID MAKE THIS IN PERSON TRIP TO SIT DOWN WITH
PUTIN IN MOSCOW. I WANT TO TALK ABOUT WHAT IS
GOING ON IN SUDAN. THE UNITED STATES SPENDING ITS
OPERATION AT THE EMBASSY AND THE EVACUATION OF THIS
PERSONNEL AND AT THE SAME TIME, THE SECRETARY OF STATE SAYING
HE IS CONCERNED ABOUT THE WEGNER GROUP IN SUDAN.
A WASH -- IN THE WASHINGTON POST THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT HOW
THE WEGNER GROUP IS TRYING TO HAVE A COLLECTIVE ANTI-WESTERN
ALLIANCE AMONGST A NUMBER OF AFRICAN STATES.
HOW QUICKLY AND HOW MUCH IS PUTIN MAKING INROADS IN AFRICA?
ANGELA: I THINK WE HAVE ALL BEEN A
LITTLE ASLEEP AT THE WHEEL. HE'S MADE QUITE RAPID INROADS
EVEN SINCE 2019 WHEN HE HAD THE FIRST POST SOVIET AFRICA SUMMIT.
WAGGONER HAS BEEN ACTIVE FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS IN A NUMBER OF
COUNTRIES, SUPPORTING DIFFERENT AUTHORITARIAN LEADERS, MAKING
LOTS OF MONEY ON THE NATURAL RESOURCES OF AFRICA AND, IN
SUDAN, WE KNOW THE RUSSIAN GOVERNMENT WOULD LIKE TO HAVE A
NAVAL BASE THERE. THEY HAVE BEEN PUSHING FOR THAT
AND WEGNER HAS BEEN REACTIVE IN SUDAN SUPPORTING DIFFERENT
LEADERS, MAKING MONEY, INTERFERING.
THEY ARE VERY GOOD AT THIS ELECTION DISINFORMATION, SO
WHAT IS INTERESTING AT THE MOMENT IS TO SEE HOW IT COMES
OUT IN THIS CURRENT CIVIL WAR THAT HAS JUST BEGUN BECAUSE IT
WAS SUPPORTING ONE SIDE BUT NOW IT LOOKS AS IF IT IS WAIT AND
SEE WITH THE WINNER IS AND INTENSIFY TIES WITH THE WINNER.
JOE: ANNMARIE MENTIONED THE SECRETARY OF STATE.
HERE'S WHAT ANTONY BLINKEN HAD TO SAY.
>> THE DECISION TO SUSPEND OPERATIONS AT THE EMBASSY,
REMOVE OUR PERSONAL FROM THEIR ASSIGNED POST IS AMONG THE MOST
DIFFICULT ANY SECRETARY HAS TO MAKE.
BUT MY FIRST PRIORITY IS THE SAFETY OF OUR PEOPLE AND I
DETERMINED THE DETERIORATING SECURITY CONDITIONS POSED AN
UNACCEPTABLE RISK TO KEEPING OUR TEAM THERE AT THIS TIME.
JOE: IT WAS SUGGESTED RUSSIA WAS WATCHING AND LEARNING AS THE
U.S. WITHDREW FROM AFGHANISTAN. I KNOW THIS IS A VERY DIFFERENT
SCENARIO. IS IT ONE PUTIN IS STILL
LEARNING FROM? ANGELA: I THINK THEY ARE STILL LEARNING
FROM IT. HE MISCALCULATED PUTIN BECAUSE
HE STARTED THE WAR WITH UKRAINE BECAUSE HE THOUGHT THE U.S.
WOULDN'T DO ANYTHING GIVEN WHAT HAPPENED WITH THE WAR FROM
AFGHANISTAN. BUT NOW I THINK THE RUSSIANS
ARE WATCHING AND IF THERE'S LESS U.S.
PRESENCE IN SUDAN, MY GUESS IS WAGONER AND THE RUSSIAN
GOVERNMENT WILL STEP IN AND TRY TO FILL THE VOID.
THIS IS A STORY THAT EVEN DURING THIS YEAR OF WAR IN
UKRAINE, RUSSIA HAS INCREASED ITS PRESENCE IN MANY PARTS OF
AFRICA. ANNMARIE: IS PUTIN SUCCEEDING IN SOME
PARTS OF THE WORLD TO CONTINUE TO DIVIDE THE WORLD SO THEY ARE
PUSHING BACK ON THE U.S.? WE SAW THIS WITH A TRIP FROM
THE BRAZILIAN PRESIDENT TO XI JINPING SAYING THE U.S.
SHOULD BE WANTING A PEACE AGREEMENT AND COME ONTO THE
SIDE OF BEIJING. ANGELA: LULA SAID BOTH SIDES WERE
RESPONSIBLE FOR THE WAR WHICH I THINK IS A PROPOSITION MUCH OF
THE WORLD WOULD NOT ACCEPT. PART OF THE STORY IS THE EXTENT
TO WHICH THE WEST HAS SOUGHT TO ISOLATE PUTIN AND HAS PARTLY
SUCCEEDED. THE GLOBAL SOUTH AS WE CALL IT
HAS NOT GONE ALONG WITH IT, EVEN IF YOU LOOK AT THE U.N.
VOTES, THE NUMBER OF COUNTRIES THAT HAVE ABSTAINED, NONE OF
THEM HAVE SANCTIONED RUSSIA AND MANY OF THEM WANT TO REMAIN
NEUTRAL IN THIS. WE SHOULD NOT KID OURSELVES
THAT AS A RESULT OF THIS WAR, PUTIN IS ISOLATED.
HE IS ISOLATED FROM THE WEST BUT HE IS NOT ISOLATED FROM THE
REST OF THE WORLD. JOE:
BRING US INSIDE RUSSIA AND POPULAR OPINION ABOUT THE WAR
IN UKRAINE, WHAT ARE PEOPLE SAYING? ANGELA:
WE DON'T HAVE VERY GOOD INFORMATION.
WE HAVE ANECDOTAL INFORMATION. WE HAVE POLAND AND THE ONE
INDEPENDENT POLLSTER THAT REMAINS SHOWS THE MAJORITY OF
RUSSIANS STILL SUPPORT THE WAR IF WE CAN BELIEVE THE POLLING.
PULLING ALSO SHOWS ABOUT HALF OF RUSSIANS THINK THEY SHOULD
HAVE NEGOTIATIONS. PUTIN SEEMS TO HAVE PERSUADED
THE RUSSIAN POPULATION THEY ARE UNDER SIEGE FROM THE UNITED
STATES AND NATO AND WE ARE TRYING TO TAKE RUSSIA OVER,
BECAUSE REGIME CHANGE OR WHATEVER AND THEY HAVE TO
SUPPORT THIS EFFORT. THEY ARE FIGHTING WORLD WAR II
ALL OVER AGAIN. AND THE U.S.
AND NATO ARE ESSENTIALLY NOT ETERNALLY -- NAZI GERMANY.
A MILLION RUSSIANS HAVE LEFT SINCE THE WAR BEGAN AND THOSE
THAT REMAIN IN RUSSIA APPEARED TO AT LEAST PASSIVELY SUPPORT
THE WAR.