>> Listen to what Sacha Baron Cohen had to say about some of the negative impacts of
social media and the way dishonest political actors have been using it.
>> Today, around the world demagogues appeal to our worst instincts.
Conspiracy theories once confined to the fringe are going mainstream.
It's as if the age of reason the era of evidential argument is ending.
And now knowledge is increasingly delegitimized and scientific consensus is dismissed.
Democracy which depends on shared truths is in retreat and autocracy, which depends on
shared lies, is on the march.
Hate crimes are surging, as a murderous attacks on religious and ethnic minorities.
Now, what do all these dangerous trends have in common?
I'm just a comedian and an actor, I'm not a scholar but one thing is pretty clear to
me.
All this hate and violence is being facilitated by a handful of Internet companies that amount
to the greatest propaganda machine in history.
>> I mean, I've liked his work for a long time but going into that speech, which I watched
in its entirety.
And you totally should, we've got a little bit more, I was very impressed with his analysis
of a number.
Of the intersection of a number of different problems and he's very much right there.
In a little bit, we're gonna show you he goes directly after Mark Zuckerberg.
But you already have a basic idea of what he thinks about Facebook, Twitter and all
that.
>> Okay, first of all, I gotta say respect.
>> He seems to really understand technology.
Okay, old school Ali G references but anyways.
No, I love the guy, love him.
Not only is he super smart, which if you've ever seen him speak on this issue or any other
issue, you would know.
But also, deeply compassionate, he gave a million dollars to make sure that refugees
were taken care of.
Muslim refugees were taken care of and so the speech here is speaking at an event called
Never is Now, for the anti defamation league.
So this guy's phenomenal.
Now, his indictment of those platforms is a really interesting conversation we'll get
into in a little bit.
But so far unquestionably, interesting, brilliant analysis that is worthy of serious debate.
>> Yeah, we can say more as we get into it but clearly he's identified the problem at
this juncture in this conversation.
He's identified what is clearly correct, which is that there is a tremendous amount of propaganda
being generated on these platforms.
>> Yeah, and like I said it goes directly after Mark Zuckeberg.
So, why don't we turn to that now.
>> Let's think about it Facebook, Youtube and Google, Twitter and others.
They reach billions of people.
The algorithm these platform depend on deliberately amplify the type of content that keeps users
engaged.
Stories that appeal to our baser instincts and that trigger outrage and fear.
It's why YouTube recommended videos by the conspiracist, Alex Jones, billions of times.
It's why fake news outperforms real news because studies show that lies spread faster than
truth.
And it's no surprise that the greatest propaganda machine in history has spread the oldest conspiracy
theory in history, the lie that Jews are somehow dangerous.
>> And he returns to that topic several times.
We'll get to the Zuckerberg in just a minute but again, just very consistently good analysis.
>> So off the air before we got to that story, we happen to be talking about that same thing.
And I literally called it the oldest conspiracy theory during the break.
>> Yeah.
>> Because Glenn Beck had done a segment where he had George Soros.
And he literally called him puppet master and had him pulling the strings, oldest stereotype
in world history, right?
So deeply, deeply antisemitic.
>> Yeah.
>> And so that stuff is being spread around.
>> That was yesterday by the way.
I mean not that that would be okay in 2007 or something but that wasn't like back in
his heyday, he's still doing that.
That was the program where the President's personal lawyer joined him.
>> That's an unbelievable, unbelievable, okay, so I can't believe that anybody would work
there.
Anyway, I'll leave it at that.
So now in terms of their responsibility but that's so that's so interesting.
Because it's he, I'm afraid that if you just watch that part it makes it seem like Facebook
and Google etc.
Favor lies or favor conspiracy theories, no, what they're doing and I'm trying to be fair.
And by the way I have a conflict I should tell you guys about, YouTube, Facebook are
our biggest partners, okay?
So I wanna be clear about that but what they're doing is they're serving out what people want.
Whatever they watch longer and what they're more attracted to, so in a sense there are
real problems with the algorithm.
Where Lemaster of Boston, who was on the show all the time talks about he wrote a book called
Beyond the Valley.
And that there's some of the cultural assumptions of the people who create the algorithm that
infects culture throughout the world.
It's a really interesting critique of those platforms.
On the other hand, what the algorithm is basically doing is serving as a mirror.
And saying here, I'll give you what you like and so, part of the problem is humanity.
And I think we have to be cognizant of that, it's not like, I don't want people to get
the wrong impression.
In my opinion, there aren't people at Facebook and Google going like, let's put something
really evil in here.
They're not like Glenn Beck where they're, okay, put in a thing in the algorithm.
If they find it, they'll know that the Jews are the puppet master, right?
No, there's no plan like that.
It's just that the algorithm rewards what people are passionate about and sometimes
that's fantastic and sometimes it's terrible.
>> But the algorithm does take you to some of the most toxic stuff out there.
And he does go on, I watched the entire thing as well, I really recommend it, as John says,
it's really worth a watch, not long.
He explains that, he explains that the way it's set up, even if it's just raw algorithmic
laboratory stuff.
It takes you to some of the most toxic philosophies that are on any platform.
>> Yeah, yeah, and I guess I agree with you that I don't think that they've purposefully
put something evil into the algorithm.
But like so Dr. Frankenstein didn't set out to create a monster but when he realized it
was a monster, he had to do something about it.
They know that they've created a monster and they're saying, it's not on us.
Free speech or something, I don't know, I'm not gonna do anything, yes, I've created something
evil but it doesn't bother me.
And while it doesn't bother me and while I'm just gonna stand back, I'm raking in money.
Based on my inaction for dealing with what I created, it's a best case scenario.
It is amoral and they're profiting off of something horrendous continuing.
>> Wait, profiting off of something that's amoral, I believe that you just described
all corporations, they don't have any morality.
>> Yeah but I would argue that because they're far bigger than most corporations.
Because they reach more people it's even worse when they do it.
>> No, I understand that.
But, guys, what I'm afraid of is if you take that argument to its logical extreme, all
you're gonna do is go back to the establishment media.
So you're gonna put in so many guardrails that, we're gonna go back to the era of acceptable
thought.
>> That is the danger that is absolutely the danger without question even I found myself
cuz I think you've got to rein this beast in.
But even I started thinking as Jenkins just pointed out, which is okay, you start writing
it in, where are you gonna end up?
And he makes an effective argument, they really need to do something now, Cenk.
They have so much money, it seems as though it's not a lot to ask for some of those resources.
To be directed to reining in some of this toxic beast.
>> Well, maybe he gets into that in the next clip.
Let's go to the portion where he focuses a little bit more on Facebook.
>> Zuckerberg tried to portray this whole issue as choices around free expression.
That is ludicrous.
This is not about limiting anyone's free speech.
This is about giving people including some of the most reprehensible people on earth.
The biggest platform in history to reach a third of the planet.
Freedom of speech is not freedom of reach.
Mark Zuckerberg seem to equate regulation of companies like his to the actions of the
most repressive societies, incredible.
This from one of the six people who decide what information so much of the world sees.
Zuckerberg at Facebook, Sundar Pichai at Google, at its parent company, Alphabet, Larry Page
and Sergey Brin, Brin's ex-sister-in-law, Susan Wojcicki at YouTube, and Jack Dorsey
at Twitter, the Silicon Six.
All billionaires, all Americans who care more about boosting their share price than about
protecting democracy.
>> This is ideological imperialism, six unelected individuals in Silicon Valley imposing their
vision on the rest of the world.
Unaccountable to any government and acting like they're above the reach of law.
It's like we're living in the Roman Empire and Mark Zuckerberg is Caesar.
At least that would explain his haircut.
>> That's a good line.
So look, now, he's laying out the problem.
We might disagree on exactly how you should deal with it.
But I think that most of us can agree that what they're currently doing is, I think it's
fair to say self serving, and it's minimal.
They're not doing much, I mean, where do you draw the line?
I don't know, you've got billions of dollars, maybe you can experiment a little bit.
I would start at the very least by actually enforcing the rules that you have, which they
don't do or they change them when they're called out.
This whole thing about allowing politicians to lie in adds.
Originally they had restrictions on that and when people including Judd Legum show that,
no you're allowing Trump to lie over and over.
They just got rid of the standards all together, they say that you can't have a sort of a bot
networks of Facebook pages promoting all of your content automatically.
Daily Wire is doing that right now, they've got 14 massive pages with huge reach.
That, the only content they put it out, is spreading the content of Daily Wire.
It's explicitly against the rules, as they stand right now, that was pointed out to them,
they don't do anything.
Because they don't want to offend the right wing and then, they lie about it.
Zuckerberg, it was revealed, had a meeting last month with Donald Trump.
I believe Peter Thiel but definitely Donald Trump and that's during this time where we're
talking about his approach to Trump's advertising.
Did he reveal that?
That he was having secretive meetings with Donald Trump?
No and he's profiting mightily while this is going on.
>> So people are gonna misinterpret me saying on the other hand is me not agreeing with
Sacha Baron Cohen, that's not the case.
That normally on talk shows and I do this very, very often.
Strong opinions, I'm positive about certain things, right, and this one I'm really not
sure.
I think it's a very difficult problem.
But I will say I think that the larger issues, I think we're kind of missing or we've got
the wrong focus.
The larger issues that are their corporations have now become the new nation state.
So they're accountable to almost all the governments, they've captured the United States government
completely through campaign donations.
And they've captured many other governments, so that's why they're all unaccountable.
We're just seeing the ramifications of Facebook and Google etc., more because they're more
part of our lives.
We almost never interact with ExxonMobil, we almost never interact with the other giant
companies that have taken control of our government.
So and we have no rules to rein in corporations, we only wrote one line of code for them, maximize
profit.
>> Mm-hm.
>> That's the core of the problem, it's just that when you take it into social media, it
creates these other ailments that we can see with our own eyes.
So I wish we would go and tackle that problem because I think it would fix a lot of other
issues first.
And then that would also affect Facebook, Google, etc.
And I also don't want to get into the demonization and here again, I'll admit a bias, I at least
know Susan from YouTube.
She didn't know there's no, look it's my best guess and you can say hey, you know her so
you're full of crap or whatever it is, right?
Perfectly lovely person, there's no crazy hidden agenda of like, I will control the
world.
And I'll drive people to the wrong places for wrong purposes, no look, Facebook appears
on the surface to be incredibly right wing, right?
But I don't see that at other companies, is much harder to discern.
>> Twitter has got some problems with.
>> Yeah, I hear you, it's just harder to discern, we dont really know, right?
And so and I've never sensed there in my interaction, again I might be biased cuz we have a relationship.
On the other hand, if I thought there was a bias, I'd be the first guy yelling about
it, right?
And you all know that and they're in a very difficult spot, and so that leads to the second
larger problem.
Which is there's, we have an imbalance in this country or one party lies all the time.
But even the mainstream media, I mean, you wanna criticize Facebook or Google, I hear
you and where it's a really fair debate.
But how about the New York Times and Washington Post that takes Republican lies and equates
them to things that are true?
And so I can't tell a Republicans say this, Democrats say that, now and Trump they've
been better.
But during the Iraq War, during the Bush Era, during the enhanced interrogations, during
Mitch McConnell's reign throughout all this time.
I can't tell who's doing the obstruction, it's 50/50 or neutral, right?
Well, then you're equated lies to the truth and that is terribly damaging.
>> Mm-hm.
>> So there are larger issues at hand that I think are bigger cancers, that doesn't mean
they don't affect Facebook and Google they do.
And it doesn't mean that those companies aren't also contributing in other ways to the problems.
But I don't think the answer is simple and I think if we just say, okay reign people
in.
Who and how?
It's a really hard.
>> Yeah.
>> That's my sense of it.
>> No, even discerning the lies is hard, because most of the lies or certainly a bulk of the
lies, exist in a gray area, so it is hard.
I guess all I was saying before is and I think all that Sacha Baron Cohen is saying and sounds
like John saying in favor of it is well.
Is devote some resources to it and try to solve that riddle, it is gonna be hard and
you may make a mistake but try to solve it.
The other I would say is Jack is 100% right about something we notice this.
But the media mergers and the corporatocracy merger mania that occurred late 20th century
and early this century that has created a handful of beasts, so if you're gonna tackle
these guys.
You also have to go after the other corporate beasts and I don't think that's gonna happen.
>> Yeah, last thing is, look, even if I disagree of parts of what Sacha Baron Cohen is saying.
I deeply respect him for bringing up this really important issue that we should all
have a national and even international conversation about.
And come to some sort of conclusion cuz right now, yes there are things that go bumping
tonight and certainly on the Internet.
And we're all throwing our hands up going, I guess there's nothing that could be done
about it.
Maybe that is the answer but maybe it's not and we show up, making a concerted effort
to figure out what can be done.
>> Yeah.