Dharna: Thanks for having me.
Mary Anne: Thank you so much.
Geoff: If tech industry watchers
are right, we will soon be
living in the metaverse.
Glimpses of the virtual
environment are already among us
-- from virtual concerts and
fashion to popular immersive
games like fortnite and
minecraft.
While the virtual world could
revolutionize work and play, it
could also supercharge
conspiracy theories and
disinformation campaigns.
I spoke about this next
generation of the internet, also
known as web3, and the risks
that come with it, with Laurie
Segall, CEO of dotdotdot media
and a former correspondent for
"60 minutes" and CNN.
I think it would be helpful if
we start with an explanation of
what web3 is and then explain
why it could potentially make
online conspiracy even more
dangerous and nefarious than it
already is.
Laurie: If you think about web
1, this was the internet boom
and bust of the early nineties
where we were browsing the
interwebs for the first time.
Then you had web 2, this was the
rise of mobile and social and
thinking about using your phone
for airbnb and Uber.
And it was the birth of all of
these new economies,
essentially.
And now we're entering a world
called web3, which is, if you
imagine technology moving beyond
your phone, us living in these
more interactive and immersive
worlds.
Having communities, having
friendships, having digital
identities, making money, having
jobs you didn't even know could
exist in these digital worlds.
Geoff: After January 6, as I
understand it, you interviewed
some of the people who stormed
the capitol, including the guy
known as the qanon shaman while
he was in jail.
And you also interviewed his
mother.
So what did the interviews with
people like that tell you about
how technology can make it
really hard for people to change
their beliefs once they believe
in conspiracy theories, even
faced with significant
consequences like doing prison
time, which he's doing right
now.
Laurie: I mean, I got to tell
you, it was pretty astounding.
He was pushing back so much on
all of these questions on why
did you do this?
And he was holding on so tightly
to these beliefs that had put
him behind bars, these
conspiracies.
And then going out and visiting
his mother and interviewing his
mother, Martha, where he grew
up.
And there was just this exchange
that we had where she kept
talking about, you know, he was
a part of that day, but he
wasn't a part of the bad part of
it, the violent part.
And I kept saying to her, but
all of it was bad.
You know, an attack on democracy
is horrible.
And there was just this moment
where she said, but it was all a
fraud.
The election was a fraud.
And having spent a lot of time
with groups, extremist groups, I
will never forget being out in
rural Michigan and speaking to a
young man who had just become a
boogaloo boy, which was an
extremist group.
And he said, you know, I was
lonely during the pandemic.
I couldn't go to the gym.
And I went on Facebook and he
said, I found this group.
And the next thing you know, I
was clicking on it and I was
surrounded by all these people
-- I mean, it's a no brainer
that this happened.
This was both preventable and
this was both predictable.
But there's a whole new
immersive era of the internet
that's happening where these
conflicts are going to be even
scarier if we don't get on top
of them.
Geoff: So that then explains why
web3, as you put it, is even
more dangerous because it is
more immersive and that people
who are looking for connection
when they find it and in a sort
of environment, a web3
environment, it becomes harder
and harder to find your way out.
Laurie: That's exactly right.
Our children are going to be
growing up in these environments
that are immersive.
There are going to be new
platforms for domestic terrorism
recruitment, for children to be
recruited into these types of
groups.
And so how are we going to
figure out how to regulate these
new technologies that people are
investing billions of dollars
into when it comes to web3?
Because it's all the rage right
now.
And I'll give you one specific
example.
It's called a Dao, a
decentralized autonomous
network.
And it sounds super wonky, but
if I could just explain it to
you, it is like a group chat
with a balance sheet and it's
run on crypto and people have
the ability to raise
extraordinary amounts of money
in just a couple days.
And at its best, Dao's in the in
the future of web3 could give
people the ability to organize
and fund projects in a setting
that could really benefit
community building and force
organizations and businesses to
rethink their business models.
Now, in the worst of settings,
imagine if qanon could organize
and 4chan could organize so
quickly using cryptocurrency,
using a lot of anonymity.
And now imagine January 6 with a
Dao.
And so I'm not trying to give
ideas here as much as I'm trying
to say we have to think about
new technology as it is being
built because we haven't even
figured out how to regulate web
2, these big tech monopolies.
And now we're entering a whole
new generation of the internet.
And we've got to talk about our
children growing up in these
immersive worlds, and how do we
actually build them with a
humanity-first approach?
Geoff: Are these active
conversations happening inside
companies like Facebook?
Laurie: Yeah.
You know, Facebook has put quite
a bit of money towards safety in
the metaverse.
And I think there's a lot of
skepticism around that.
And then you talk about web3.
The idea behind web3 is it is
more decentralized, as there
should be lots of companies that
have a lot of this different
type of power, but there's
really no structure, right?
And we don't really have an
ethical construct for this.
I just spoke to one investor and
I said, what do you think is the
most important thing we need to
think about when it comes to the
unintended consequence of the
next generation of the internet?
And he looked at me and he said,
"Laurie, we should believe in
the future.
Every single thing we see on the
internet is going to be fake."
And this is coming from a very
prominent investor investing in
the future of tech companies.
So I think it's important to
have these conversations now and
try to get some of these good
people in the doors now.
Because we certainly have a
playbook of what went wrong over
the last generation of tech.
Geoff: Laurie Segall, thanks so