So much of our communication is about motivation, motivating others and
motivating ourselves.
I'm Matt Abrahams and
I teach Strategic Communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business.
Welcome to Think Fast ,Talk Smart, The Podcast.
I am really excited to speak with Szu-chi Huang,
an Associate Professor of Marketing at Stanford GSB.
Szu-chi's research focuses on motivation science and shared goal pursuit.
She studies things such as competition, healthy eating, and dynamic feedback.
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Hi, Szu-chi, welcome to the podcast.
I am super excited to have you here.
>> Thank you, Matt.
It's so good to be here.
>> Excellent, let's go ahead and get started.
In preparing to speak with you, I reviewed a lot of your work.
And I'm struck by the variety of your research, from advertising to robots and
goals and competition.
I'm curious, what motivates the research you do?
>> Yeah, that is a great question to start with because definitely I have pretty
broad interests.
I actually started getting intrigued by the topic related to motivation
because I was working at an advertising agency, JWT back in Taiwan.
And at that time in advertising, the biggest question is how do we motivate
our customers to come back to the store to purchase more products?
And I realized we don't really have a lot of answers about that.
And that eventually motivated me to join academia, and
therefore, I do a lot of projects related to motivation and goal pursuit.
Talking about how people's motivation could change from one stage to another or
how we could potentially collaborate or
compete when we are working on goals together.
And then because of that, through my students,
I started branching out to look at other types of motivation.
Such as how do we motivate donors to donate money or to volunteer, and
also looking at how new technologies shape our motivation, for
instance, the use of FinTech, service robots.
All these new technologies can affect our motivation in the sense that it can
increase our motivation to do the things we love or
sometimes decrease our motivation.
And that's why I started looking into these other areas.
>> It's so exciting the things you study.
And I love that the story comes from your own curiosity and need when you were
doing advertising to see that we just didn't know enough about motivation.
And we'll get to talking about motivation soon, for sure.
We did a series of podcast episodes where we talked about communication, and
decision making, and decision science with some of our GSB colleagues.
And you teach a class, and I love the name.
It's called The Brains and Guts of Decision Making.
Can you share one or two key ideas that you cover in that class?
>> Definitely, so The Brains and Guts of Decision Making,
I teach that with Jonathan Levav.
So we are co-directors of the program.
So he takes care of the brain part and
I take care of the gut part because I'm a motivation scientist.
And the two main takeaways I have for
students in that class is the first thing is that it's all about needs.
So in order to think about how we shape people's behavior,
it's about understanding what needs they have.
And oftentimes when we think about a company or a product, we can easily zoom
into one need we believe people have, but it's actually way richer than that.
So I give them an example of Nike.
Nike sells shoes, and shoes satisfy one need, physiological need.
So we don't have to hurt our foot when we walk.
But of course, that's way more than that.
Nike also sells self-esteem needs, social needs so
you can jog with others, share data.
Self-actualization needs because through jogging, you become fitter,
closer to your ideal self.
So the needs can be all kinds of needs.
And it's about picking up the right motivation to speak to your target
audience.
So that's the first takeaway usually I hope our students will have.
The second one is closely tied to needs and motivation is emotionality.
Because when our needs are satisfied, we get happy, so
there's a lot of positive emotion there.
But when they're dissatisfied, that's when we get really mad and grumpy, so
we have a lot of negative emotion.
Recent research showed that emotionality is really key in all our decision making.
Researchers were able to find that emotionality behind the reviews actually
account for way more variance than the content of the reviews.
So they were able to actually link the emotionality behind the reviews to predict
the success of thousands of movies, billions of books, and
restaurant reservations.
So it's not so much about what the reviewers actually write about, but
the emotionality behind their reviews that drives people's decision.
And so motivation, emotionality, these are the two things I want to highlight.
>> Wow, well, when I look at my Nike shoes sitting in the corner and the fact that I
haven't run in them, it sometimes make me feel bad, but I find that fascinating.
So when we talk on this podcast a lot about knowing your audience, and
we talk a lot about their needs.
And many of us when we start our communication,
we start from the wrong place.
We start from what do we want to say rather than thinking about the needs.
And what I like about what you've said is you have to uncover all of the needs.
It might not just be one thing, and that's fascinating.
And the other aspect you said about the emotionality, so it's not even so
much what you say, but it's the emotion behind it that we're decoding and
reading and can be motivational.
Really, really interesting.
And I find that to be true for myself when I read a review of a restaurant or a book.
I am taking away, how did that person feel about that?
>> Definitely, and it's really fundamental because that's how human beings connect.
And that's why we categorize it as the gut reaction.
That's a lot of times the key indicator of our perception, attitude, and behavior.
>> That's great,
and Jonathan was on recently and he shared fantastic insights, too.
I can only imagine your students take away amazing things from both of you.
You also did research that looked at what you call information avoidance.
Can you share what your findings were and
discuss how choosing to avoid some information can affect our motivation?
>> Definitely, this is actually one of the most fascinating findings I have
discovered, and also one of the most personally relevant.
So in the modern days, we know we have all kinds of social information.
I log into Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram.
I get to know what all my friends and colleague are doing.
And so it's really an era where we have way more social information than we need.
From the motivations perspective,
what that means is we get all kinds of social benchmarks.
We know how much progress other people are making on goals very similar to our own,
could be health goals, family, time goals, or career goals.
And what we found in this research is that we don't always want that information.
So specifically, when we are starting to work on a new goal,
we love that information.
Because we want to learn from what other people were doing and
we want to learn from their success.
Also as we get close to actually reaching our goals,
we are usually feeling great about ourselves.
So at that moment, we don't mind having those informations.
Because it can help us feel like we are doing great and we are winning and
that feels great.
But what really is critical is halfway through our goal pursuit process.
That is the moment where we kind of we lose curiosity.
We don't really feel we need to learn more about the goal anymore.
We are not fully confident that we can achieve our goal yet, so
we are not in the late stage.
So that halfway point is when we have a lot of insecurity.
We are losing a little bit motivation there, and that moment,
we don't want to know how well other people are doing.
So that is when social information becomes really threatening, and
that is when we want to avoid it.
But what we found is that if you give people a choice to actually avoid
information, they can mute the notification,
move their eyes away from the source of information.
What happens is they now don't have the benchmark that actually motivates them.
So information avoidance can actually lead to decreased motivation.
And so after I found that, I used that piece of research to remind myself.
So whenever I work on my goals, and I feel really stressed out, and I feel that other
people are doing great better than me, I want to avoid the information.
Those are the moment I realized, actually, I shouldn't be afraid.
I should actually see those information because that will give
the benchmark I need to motivate myself to move forward.
So that is kind of the key learning I personally have from that research.
>> I so relate to that.
I'm by nature a competitive person.
And when I get really excited with friends and others and we're
going to go embark on this if it's doing some kind of exercise or losing weight.
And after I'd been doing it a little while, I do get that insecurity.
Can I keep this up as I kind of go?
And then when I see my friends making more progress, and, of course, they're very
proud to share that progress, it makes me feel really bad and I do tune it out.
But what I'm hearing you say is that I should go against that desire to
tune it out and actually use it to keep that motivation going.
>> What we found is that the moment that we feel the most insecure about having
social information is the moment where those information really is valuable
to have.
>> I love counterintuitive things.
And I'm going to try that because I got some friends and
we've got this little thing around health going on.
And I'm going to dive back in because I've muted some of that information.
So thank you for that.
We'll see, I'll check in with you in a little bit.
We'll see how much it helped.
>> I look forward to hearing your progress on that, Matt.
>> Okay, now I'm even more pressured.
It's all good, it's all good.
Can you share what your research suggests are some concerns and best practices for
designing motivating competitions?
>> So I have work that more directly look at actual competition as zero-sum games,
where there's an incentive or reward and you have to beat others to get it.
And based on the research,
we do know that competition definitely increases motivation.
It make attaining the goal more valuable.
But what prior research hasn't looked at is, is it better to be ahead or
behind when you are in a competition?
So we actually look at all kinds of data sources from working out to class
performance.
And what we found is that both winning or losing can motivate you,
but they motivate you at different phases of the competition.
So in the beginning of the competition, usually at that moment, we are looking for
signal that we can actually win.
So we are doing some kind of probability assessment.
If there's no chance of winning,
we will just disengage instead of investing more resources into it.
So these kind of a winning signal or feeling that you are ahead is so
helpful in the beginning.
If you are already losing in the beginning, you will just give up.
But winning signal doesn't always work.
As you get closer to the late phase of competition, if you are still winning,
then the natural tendency is you relax.
You feel like you don't need to work hard anymore.
And we forget about the fact that this is not an individual goal,
it's a competitive goal.
And you have no idea what your opponent will do in that last stage or
last round of the game.
So usually in the later phase, being behind slightly is actually way more
motivating because it gives you a very clear benchmark to achieve.
So what do you do if you're actually winning the whole way through?
What we did in one of the experiment is we actually ran a used book donation drive.
It's a donation competition across two campuses in China.
So you naturally have a winning campus that is doing well and a losing campus.
A few weeks in, they were collecting books, but not so great.
So what we did is, of course, we told the losing campus that they are losing and
they increase their effort.
But we also want to motivate the winning campus to continue donating used books.
So what we did is instead of telling them they are winning,
we compare them to their campus's past performance last year.
So yes, you are winning, but comparing to how many books you were able
to raise last year, you are slightly behind of that benchmark.
It is a self-comparison benchmark, but turns out even that comparison can be
meaningful to motivate the winning campus to continue donating books.
So that could be an important takeaway for
all of us who are listening to the podcast who are winning right now.
It's great to win and it sends a great signal to help you stay motivated.
But if you feel like you're actually demotivated by that signal because it
doesn't seem that you need to put in more effort,
maybe comparing to your past self could be another way to motivate you.
>> Wow, I really liked that there are different points of comparison and
different types of comparison to motivate.
And as people who design competitions, if you will,
we can actually build in some of these metrics.
The information that we give to people can be really interesting.
I think of business leaders who might be trying to motivate internal teams or
across different companies.
How we might give them feedback in a way that keeps everybody motivated,
regardless of if you're ahead or behind, >> And
we actually talk to companies a lot, and also schools.
You have students who are performing well or sales teams who are performing well and
you really don't want them to relax.
They should try to achieve more, but you also can take away in the message that
they are indeed winning compared to their peers.
So it is important to actually change the benchmark for those people so
they have something to strive for.
>> Right, and one other point you made that really stuck with me is if you feel
like you're losing early on, you just give up.
So that's an important time period to give some motivational feedback so
that you can keep people going, because I've seen that happen.
I've been an assistant coach on some of my kids' teams.
Or I've seen that in companies where I've worked, where if people don't feel like
they have the skills right off the bat, they just check out.
>> That's why we always say that in the early stage,
the most important signal is attainability signal.
People need to believe that the goal is attainable or
the competition is winnable so they will continue working hard.
And so you say, we can't just think about giving the same feedback to everybody.
For the people who really need that attainability signal, we need to kind
of give them different feedback so that we encourage them from the perspective that,
yes, what you have can actually help you achieve the goal.
Stop comparing to other people.
Maybe think about the ability you already have learned or skills you have.
So highlighting attainability is going to be critical in the beginning.
And somehow creating that benchmark, that additional goal to strive for,
additional comparison to strive for, that'll be important at the end.
>> It's striking me in several things that you've shared with us that there
are general principles, but it comes down to really tailoring your
motivational approach based on different people's needs and their individuality.
And I've heard you say that several times and I think that's a really important
takeaway for all of us is that there's general guiding principles.
But what you know about the individual or
the team really drives the tailored communication that you have to them.
>> The biggest part of my research finding is on the temporal dynamics of goal
pursuit.
And the important aspect of this is in the past,
we tend to think about what motivates people as a static thing.
So if I figure out one variable, one factor, I just give that to everybody.
But the temporal dynamics model said that it should be dynamic.
The feedback we give people should be dynamic depending on who they are,
what skills they think they have, and where they come from.
And also as they make more progress during a competition or
pursuing their personal goal, the feedback should be dynamic as well.
We can't keep on giving them the same kind of signal.
So changing that and tailor that for
everybody's needs is going to be critical in sustaining motivation.
>> So this is a beautiful transition to another question I have for you,
which is this notion of what I hear you say is your feedback has to be different
based on where people are in their journey.
And I know you along with our colleague Jennifer Aaker have done some research
into how having a mindset,
a journey mindset can actually really influence how you achieve goals.
Would you share more about that study?
I found this really fundamentally changing for me personally.
>> It was personal for me, too.
That research finding has a lot of relevance for how I think about success.
And definitely, the motivation for that work,
it came from the fact that we tend to think about goal success as a destination.
We reach the destination and we feel great.
But what happen when you reach the destination is that there's nothing else
left to be done.
So a lot of times people graduate and they stop learning, or they lose weight, and so
they stop working out.
And fundamentally, we want people to continue learning and
continue working out or monitoring what they eat.
Those good behaviors should continue.
So what we found in this research is that it is important to think about goal
success, not just as a destination, but also as a journey.
It doesn't actually have to be a journey forward, thinking about the next goal.
But it's actually more important to use it as a journey to look backwards, to look at
what you have done right during this process that helped you achieve the goal.
Who were instrumental for you during this journey?
>> Well, I've enjoyed this very much.
Before we end,
I'd like to ask you the same three questions I ask everyone who joins me.
Is that okay with you?
>> Yes.
>> Great, then let's get started.
If you were to capture the best communication advice you've ever received
as a five to seven-word presentation slide title, what would it be?
>> It actually already came up earlier in our talk and I just need three words,
know your audience.
>> We have heard that a lot on this podcast,
and what you bring to that is really a lot of depth and richness.
So it's about emotionality.
It's about understanding that audiences aren't homogenous,
that there's differentiations and nuance in there and I-
>> And to know that they evolve,
they will change.
>> Right, over time, that journey that's so important, it's not static.
Excellent, thank you.
Who's the communicator that you admire and why?
>> I have to say Michelle Obama.
And I think every time I hear her speak, there are four things that comes to mind,
clarity, confidence, elegance, and empathy.
And I think a speech that has all four elements are very powerful.
>> Absolutely, and you role model some of that yourself.
I mean, the clarity of the information,
the elegance of the research that you've done there, excellent choice.
Number three,
what are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe?
>> So the first one, I have to come back to the same point, know your audience.
Specifically, know why they are there to listen to the message.
And the second one will be to tailor your content,
connecting your content to that audience.
And the third one, make it personal.
You also have to connect the content to you.
So you're not just lecturing something that they can hear from anybody else,
they're actually learning specifically from you.
>> All three of those are critical.
I want to put an exclamation point after that personal part because I think that's
something that we don't think about, and
sometimes people don't feel comfortable doing.
But it really does make a difference if you feel that the person has a direct
connection to that content, it's meaningful to them.
Thank you for reminding us of that.
That's really, really important.
Well, thank you, Szu-chi.
This has been wonderful.
You have certainly motivated me to be more interested in motivation.
I love your research and how it covers so many different areas and
really makes us think about who we're talking to, when we're talking to them,
and how we can motivate our audience.
Thank you so much.
>> Thank you so much for having me, Matt.
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>> You've been listening to Think Fast, Talk Smart, The Podcast,
a production of Stanford Graduate School of Business.
This episode was produced by Michael Riley, Jenny Luna and me, Matt Abrahams.
Find more resources and
join our conversation on LinkedIn by searching Think Fast, Talk Smart.
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