Go back to back to the story in the '80s and '90s, at this point in time, banking has always
been very much a male dominated industry.
How did you find getting into the business originally?
Climbing so far, so fast, which was a very hard thing to do back then for a lady, how
did you find that in the moment at the time?
Did you find you were constantly feeling like you were fighting battles?
Or was it fairly seamless for you?
There were battles.
And I can tell you a couple that I find funny in retrospect, in one aspect.
And then also in another aspect, I find it humiliating, you know, when you really look
back at it and think that that's what you had to go through.
But it was also the time.
I hate to be so complacent about it.
But it was the time.
And you did what you had to do.
And I wasn't somebody that-- well, I was.
I was somebody that would be a barn burner and would really raise my hand and say when
something wasn't right.
And I got in trouble a lot for being too much of an advocate.
But I didn't humiliate anyone or really cause anyone to-- and an example is, when I'd go
out on real estate projects-- and this happened more than once, where I'd be inspecting a
real estate property.
And I'd be there with the investor.
And I'd be walking ahead of them, or going up the stairs, and they'd pinched my butt.
Today, that would never happen.
And if I was the person I am now, I would have turned around and slapped them.
But back in those days, you just kind of turned around and laughed, and kind of slapped their
hand away.
But you never would confront them.
You would never say, that's inappropriate.
You know, you just kind of laughed it off.
Because you felt somehow you brought it on.
You know?
That you were too enticing, or too free, that somehow it was your issue.
Or that if you were to make a deal out of it, it would have made the situation too awkward,
or it would have caused you to lose the client, or it would have caused the bank to think
you had done something wrong.
It would have been a black mark on me, not on the client.
So you just rolled with things like that.
And that happened a lot.
But it was nothing overt, or really harmful.
If it had been, then I suppose, I hope, I would have taken stronger steps.
But that kind of stuff happened a lot.
And it happened a lot within the bank.
I mean, men were fairly free with how they touched.
And you just slapped him away playfully.
You know, you never confronted them.
And today that would never happen.
And if it did, you would be much more aggressive about it.
You know, it's funny.
When we watch shows like Mad Men, which takes us back to a slightly different era.
Oh, yeah.
And it's amazing today how unbelievable that sort of behavior seems to us here today.
Yeah, absolutely.
But it was the norm back then.
I mean, it's a terrible norm to have existed, but it was norm.
Yeah.
Obviously, no one's ever done that to me, thankfully, I guess.
Well, if you'd like, I could show you how it feels.
That would be wildly inappropriate, Barbara.
Yes.
But you don't think of that.
When you're in a male dominated industry like banking has always been, you don't think of
that when you're a man.
You don't see that stuff really going on in the same way.
Oh, absolutely.
You're too busy.
You're too focused on all the stuff going on.
But it's only really, I think for me, personally, with the benefit of hindsight, and the benefit
of seeing retro pieces on TV that try and recreate the environment, you realize how
difficult it was for someone like you at that point, who is clearly brilliantly smart, incredibly
capable, and fighting every day just to be allowed to have a chance to prove that to
people and even be on a level playing field.
And you have to try and suss out the intent.
And is it mitigating the respect someone has for you?
And usually, it is not.
And that's really what mattered to me.
But I'll tell you another instance.
And this was not in the same realm.
But this one upset me much more.
It was when we were officially starting the private bank.
And the chairman of the bank wanted me to take on an existing client that had been in
the corporate bank.
And it was a group of men that were very prominent.
And they had a real estate company.
But each of them was a private banking-type client.
And we were holding a lunch for them to introduce me.
The purpose was to introduce me.
And we were holding the lunch, and we were holding it at the Bankers Club in San Francisco,
where I was a member.
Old club, up on the top of the B of A building, that's no longer there.
And we were down in the main lobby of the bank.
And there were a few of us standing there talking about hosting this lunch.
And this guy walks up, who happened to be the grandson of the person that had owned
a home that became a private club.
A male only private club.
Because back in the day, there were still male only private clubs.
And he walked up and he says, oh, what are you guys talking about?
Said, about hosting this lunch to introduce Barbara, blah blah blah.
And he goes, oh, I want to come.
And I said, fine, you know, you could come, if you'd like.
And he goes, in fact, we're going to hold it at such and such club.
And I said, you do understand I can't even serve you lunch at that club?
He said, oh, that's too bad.
Come on.
And they held the lunch there.
And I was like-- and the purpose is to introduce me.
And he just overrode it and they held the lunch there.
And so the chairman of the bank held a second lunch in the board dining room to introduce
me.
Wow.
I was just like, I was dismissed.
I-- That's shocking.
That's really shocking.
Yeah.
I was stunned.
But does this sort of galvanize you and make you more determined to say, you know what?
I'll show you.
Or is that kind of too cartoonish?
Is it a conscious thought?
Or you just put your head down and keep working?
And thinking-- I put my head down and keep working.
I mean, there was clearly no way I was going to change his mind.
None of the other men in that group-- because it was all men-- none of them stood up and
said, no, we're not going to have it there.
She can't come.
This whole purpose is to introduce her.
So I realized that this is very much a man's world.
None of them are going to come to my defense.
That if I need-- if I am going to change, I'm going to have to do it on my own, and
just prove myself, and make myself indispensable.
And so that's what I did.
And, thankfully, times changed.
Well, obviously they do.
Thankfully.
Yeah.
But it's still-- it's a long struggle.
I mean, it's a-- Oh, it's a very long struggle.
Very long struggle.
And that's probably why there weren't a lot of women that were able to do it.
Because it was not a very favorable environment for women.
Was there any point in time when you noticed a step change?
Has it been gradual?
Or was there anything that happened at some point where you suddenly realized, hey, you
know what?
Things are changing.
There-- a few women started to get into more senior positions at institutions in the early
'90s, or late '80s.
And I think that started to make a difference.
But they didn't last long.
In the mid-'80s, late '80s, they really struggled.
And they didn't last long because they would usually run against a male peer.
And they would find frustration.
No matter how it was dressed up, that's usually what it was, and they wouldn't last long.
And that's really what happened to me.
I ran up against men that really wanted to replace me with men.
And no matter how it was dressed up, that's what it really came down to.