John: ...with education, you know, comes empowerment.
You know, with empowerment, you know, you're confident to succeed.
So I think that education is the root fundamental basis of a successful reentry, I really believe
that.
Gerard: Hello, my name is Gerard Robinson.
I'm a resident fellow at the American Enterprise Institute.
And I'm excited to be here with John Huffington from Living Classrooms, to talk about education,
talk about reentry, and what it means to our narrative.
John, welcome to AEI.
John: Thank you, glad to be here.
Gerard: Well, you've been here before, and you've got a powerful testimony.
And what I'd like to do just to start off, is when you hear the term "prison education,"
what comes to mind?
John: The need to have more of it, you know, especially right now.
I mean, we're fighting to, you know, to maintain the Pell Grant access, so that there can be
an opportunity for, you know, higher education behind the fence.
You know, meaning incarceration.
So that's been my background, that's where I got my degree.
I'm a strong proponent for it, and an advocate for making sure that we keep the funding in
place.
Gerard: So some people in the viewing audience may be unaware of the Pell Grant, what's in
place today, and what's in place when you were incarcerated, tell us a little bit about
that.
John: So, when I was incarcerated, I was incarcerated from 1981 to 2013, 32 years before winning
a writ of actual innocence, and getting my release.
I graduated in 1995.
I was in the last graduating class as they removed access to the Pell Grant.
It actually stripped me of my senior year, so I graduated as a junior.
Luckily for me, I'd been taking enough credits all along that I was able to go out at the
end with, you know, taking a few extra classes and graduate for a bachelor's.
So at that point in time, we had a full college program, a full curriculum in there where
you could secure a bachelor's degree.
And then do some politics and some misrepresentation of what the Pell Grants actually meant, Congress
revoked inmate's access to them.
Pell Grants are designed for the lowest of incomes, to be able to get higher education.
Prisoners nationwide were using it.
I think it was less than 1%, or less than half of 1% of the eligible Pell Grant funds
that were out there.
So really, it was not a financial issue or an economic issue, but it became a very topical
issue for obvious reasons.
But, yeah, I think that, you know, the opportunity for me to gain a college education was, you
know, extremely important.
And, you know, I've seen in my own walk and in my current, you know, position as Director
of Workforce Development and overseeing, you know, a reentry program, how important the
education process really is.
And the impact that it has on successful reintegration into society.
So, again, you know, I'm a strong proponent for it.
Now, we've got a smaller version that President Obama had instituted, more like a trial status,
here in Maryland.
Goucher and the University of Baltimore both run programs utilizing the Pell Grant, but
it is very limited in their offerings as far as what they can do for degree-seeking, how
many folk that they can actually serve.
And then, you know, we're in a state right now where it's actually questionable whether
that would be able to continue under the new administration.
Whether they will continue to allow access or revitalize the funding of the Pell Grant.
Gerard: So you mentioned the work you're doing in Maryland, you've seen firsthand the importance
of education, tell me a little bit about your work and what you do for people who are reentering
society, particularly in Maryland.
John: Sure, so I'm with Living Classrooms Foundation, and the role I play is I'm Director
of the Workforce Development for Baltimore.
So, in that role, I oversee all of our Baltimore efforts, including our reentry division, which
is Project SERVE.
And that stands for service, empowerment, revitalization, volunteerism, and employment
opportunities.
Quite a mouthful for an acronym.
But, you know, it's a reentry vehicle, it's probably one of the longest and largest community-based
reentry programs in Maryland.
Been doing it for 21 years, long before it was a popular cause, before folk had really
started to look at reentry, Living Classrooms had gotten into that.
Our model is a rapid attachment to work.
So when folk come out...Actually our case management team goes behind the fence, and
starts working with them about three months prior to release.
And that's just preparing the home planet, and doing cognitive and behavioral modules
to help prepare to return.
To understand what it's gonna be like, you know, especially concerning if they've been
gone for, you know, several years or even decades.
So, society has a way of moving past us, and there's a lot to catch up on.
So, we try to remove the obstacles and the barriers.
When they come out, we're right there, we're working to provide the IDs, social security,
birth certificate, Maryland ID.
Again, we have a rapid attachment to work, so within a week of, you know, the normal
HR process, they're able to come to work for us.
So it's a minimum wage, but it's a 40-hour workweek.
We have a contract with the city, where we clean 4,000 properties a year through TPW.
We also have MOUs with various other entities like Waterfront Partnership, where we work
at the inner harbor.
Everybody down there has "Clean Team" on the back of their shirts, who're involved in our
program.
We have the same kind of MOU with the Maryland Zoo, and the National Park Service, so we
do Fort McHenry and handle the Visitor's Center.
And we're always looking and striving to create even more work modules.
The principle being that we expose the folk to a real-world work environment, while providing,
you know, full case management surround system, and a variety of workshops that we're dealing
with the soft skills as well.
We provide industry-recognized certification, forklift and flagging.
We're partnered up with Ray Lewis and Power 52 to do solar training.
We're gonna be doing out cyber security with UNBC.
We're about to put in our own kitchen with the American Heart Association, so we're gonna
be doing what ServSafe and some other entrepreneurship efforts with that.
So again, it's about providing that opportunity, a paycheck to go with it, and then to transition
them into a sustainable income job, that's the goal.
So it's more about listening to the individual, finding out what their dreams and aspirations
are, and then trying to understand how to reach that.
So we reverse engineer the jobs, so to speak, and try to help them and, you know, empower
them to reach whatever their goals are, whatever their actual dream is.
Gerard: So a lot of the research we look at here at AEI and other places are saying that
reentry is important.
That one reason people often return to prison, either lack of job, could be something with
not fulfilling some obligations.
You know, how is your program getting success, say in ways that other programs, aren't?
What are you doing differently, and what can we learn from?
John: I wish I could bottle that.
I mean, we're all in the business, and we're all, you know, trying to find what works.
I mean, we're very eclectic in our approach, so, you know, we'll try anything and everything
to...You know, we're about ensuring success.
So a couple things I think that make us successful is one, is the rapid attachment to work.
Instead of just putting somebody in a classroom, and providing a stipend, and teaching and
preaching to them, you know, like I said, we create...or we don't create, we have a
real world work environment.
It's a passable, you know, paycheck that they can get with that.
And then again, the case management piece is very important, and that follows them.
So when they leave us, it's not just about placing somebody in a job and then like, "Ooh,
there's a checkbox," and move on.
You know, our case management stays with that individual for up to two years after they've
left the program.
And it's a dual-customer model, so it's not just for the individual, it's for the employers.
So we make that same arrangement with the employer, and we provide the support to the
employer.
So you know, if John Jay has an attendance issue after they've been there for two weeks,
they call us and we will intercede.
We'll go talk to John Jay, find out what's going on, see if it's something we can help
with.
Or if it's a communication issue between John Jay and the management, we'll sit down and
mediate that.
But we really are invested in the individual's success and we just, you know, it's just like
anybody else.
You just can't walk away and assume because you have a job that you're suddenly successful.
There are a lot of obstacles that life is gonna throw at you and, you know, keeping
that support system in place is very important.
One of our case managers, when he came home, he's a returned citizen himself, created an
organization called First Money Empowerment Group.
So there, we utilizing that as a peer-to-peer social reintegration organization.
Something that a lot of folk don't think about.
They're quick to say, "Don't return to the same street corner, don't hang out with the
same group of friends."
But what's the solution?
Gerard: Right.
John: You know, what are you offering in return?
So that individual's not a member of a mosque, a synagogue, you know, or a church, you know,
where do they go to find community?
So, yeah, I truly believe there are three keys to success.
And one is to have a vision and have a goal, and always be striving towards that, work-related,
you know, in your personal life, whatever.
But just have that drive to go after a goal.
Secondly, you need to, you know, surround yourself with a strong support system of like-minded
individuals.
So, you know, what we do at Project SERVE is we start every morning with a circle, and
that's a community circle, and that's topic driven.
And one of our staff will lead the conversation, and it could be tool talk, or programmatic
talk.
or it could just be about, "What happened in the neighborhood?
How do you feel about the statutes coming down?
How do you feel about take a knee?
You know, anything that's topical so that we're relatable.
So again, we're establishing community, were giving a voice, we're empowering the vision,
so that's important as well.
I think it's helped us achieve a 9% recidivism rate of folk coming through our program, and
that's compared to citywide of about 48 to 52, I think nationwide it's even higher.
Gerard: Correct.
John: So again, the key component for us is to have the work component, just to enlarge
with.
But I think the model works, and the model is about, you know, really listening, that's
the first thing we do when they come in the door, we listen.
And we understand what their vision is, and what their dream is, and then you create,
you know, your ICP, individualized case management plan, and try to help them get to that.
Gerard: One of the things you mentioned about taking classes in prison, is you had Pell
Grant.
Here are some other questions, who was your favorite instructor?
What did you study?
And what was your favorite class?
John: I had a couple.
So my main degree was management science, I've always been business-driven.
So, my degree was actually a bachelor's in management science with a concentration in
economics and finance.
But I was also approved for dual degrees, and I would've had a degree in abnormal psych
as well.
Now, I lost that degree because of having to graduate as a junior, although I did get
my minor in that.
So I had a favorite teacher I think on both sides of the fence for the course.
There was Professor Johnson on the business side, who just challenged me.
I was just impressed with him from the beginning, you know, he empowered me.
That's the only way to say it, like, he believed in me.
And at the time I was in that class, I was serving a double life sentence.
So, you know, theoretically, nowhere to go, no hope.
But he was a teacher that took the time to listen to my questions, to challenge me, and
you now, I just gravitated really strongly to that.
And to the classes themselves, you know, that was my forte all along.
And I liked those classes, so they were easy.
Now the other side, the psychology classes were a little more difficult for me.
My mind and my brain doesn't necessarily think that way, I'm more eclectic in my approach.
But Earl Chandler [SP] was the professor on that side that really, really challenged me
again.
Gerard: Okay.
John: And, you know, I was involved with self-help organizations while I was inside, and he was
very supportive of those efforts, too.
And we were able to try and, you know, generate some projects that we could do.
My alma mater was Coppin State University, so again, a historically black college.
I was fortunate enough to be a graduate, and I'm very proud to be an alum of that.
Gerard: Good.
If you were giving advice to a young man, young woman in your situation today, and they
say, "Why would I want to pursue a college education?
Not gonna make a difference when I get out," what would you say to him or her?
John: Look at me.
Gerard: Okay.
John: Okay, I mean, you know, 32 years and I came home on a writ of actual innocence,
but again, just look at that.
That's 32 years of a gap in a resume, you know.
And here I'm the director of Workforce Development for Living Classrooms, so that's no small
task.
I mean, I oversee and I'm responsible for a staff of over 20, a membership that, you
know, can rise to 75 any given time.
You know, I have a multi-million dollar budget.
I have three buildings, you know, that are in my portfolios.
So it's a lot of responsibility, and I don't think that that would've been given to me
had I not had the education.
It's not about the degree, that's a piece of paper.
It's about the education that comes with that.
And I've said this before, you know, with education, you know, comes empowerment.
You know, with empowerment, you know, you're confident to succeed.
So I think that education is the root fundamental basis of a successful reentry, I really believe
that.
You know, we talk about this all the time, what we can do.
Well, it now about "we," it's about the individual.
You know, reentry starts the minute you go in the door, it should, you know, and there
should be a support system around that.
But again, it comes down to the individual, not what we can impose on them.
So education is the greatest gift you can give anybody, because then, you know, we're
conscious and we can think for ourselves, and then we can realize and attain any goal.
Gerard: You make a good distinction between education and a degree, because there's some
people who simply take courses for human betterment, because they're interested in the subject.
There's actually a study out of a women's prison in New York, who identified that women
who simply took courses, but did not complete actually increased their chances of not recidivating
by 37%.
So last couple of questions.
Number one, we're here at AEI to have a conversation about prison education reentry.
If I'm a university on the sideline, I've heard your story, we wanna take a look at
what's gonna happen, what would you say to encourage a university to say, "You know what,
I wanna get involved with this kind of work," what would you say to them?
John: You know, I think, you know, you could talk to any of the teachers, and I have, the
teaching side and the quality in the interest level of the student, matched by none out
here.
I mean, you know, first of all, you're talking about an adult usually, so there's a there's
a conscious choice to do this.
And I think, like for us, that we understand it's gonna take more than a piece of paper.
You're already coming out with so many checked boxes against you that if you don't come out
with the education that is part of that, you know, you're doomed to fail.
I mean, you can't just cheat your way through the process, or take the easy way out and
crib note your way out.
You really need the education piece.
And I think that for the majority of those folk inside that are in there doing this,
that's the tact they take.
That was my class, the folk that I was in classes with.
It was a challenge, and one in particular, like we would always challenge each other.
It's not enough to get an A, I had to get a 96 if he had a 95.
It was just that battle back and forth.
It was a world geography course I was taking, and it was the first...You know, I hadn't
been school in 20 years or whatever, and got a pop quiz.
And I aced it with, you know, in the 90 range, and I was like, "Wow, I can do this."
And from that point on, it was not enough to get a B. I graduated 4.0, and that is very
important to me to maintain that.
Because it was the evidence that I was getting the education to go with that.
It was me pushing myself to make sure that I was achieving more than, you know, anyone
else.
You know, I was competing with myself though.
So I think that's important.
I think the universities and colleges get that.
And to be a part of somebody's successful reentry, is a very important role that they
can play.
The higher education department needs to be a part of that.
Gerard: John, thank you again, for spending time with me at AEI, and always glad to have
you here.
John: Oh, it's a pleasure to be here.
It's always, you know, my honor to be a part of your efforts and we, you know, especially
in the reentry community, appreciate the things that you guys do, and the voice that you give
us.
Gerard: Thank you.
Hey, everyone, that's the end of our discussion with John Huffington.
Thanks for watching.
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