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>> Stephen: WELCOME BACK, EVERYBODY.
JOINING ME NOW IS A BEST-SELLING AUTHOR AND JOURNALIST WHO HOSTED
"HARDBALL" FOR MORE THAN 20 YEARS.
HE'S JUST WRITTEN A MEMOIR CALLED "THIS COUNTRY" ABOUT HIS
LIFE IN POLITICS AND HISTORY.
PLEASE WELCOME TO "A LATE SHOW," CHRIS MATTHEWS.
CHRIS, GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN.
>> GOOD TO SEE YOU.
>> Stephen: THE LAST TIME -- WELL, WE'VE TALKED MTSZ OVER THE
YEARS.
I'LL GET TO THE LAST TIME WE SPOKE IN JUST A MOMENT.
ONE OF THE REASONS I LIKE TALKING TO YOU OTHER THAN THE
FACT YOU'RE A HOST AND YOU REALLY EAT UP THE TIME, I DON'T
HAVE TO WORK WHEN YOU'RE ON, IT'S LIKE A VACATION, BUT YOU'VE
SEEN SO MUCH IN WASHINGTON, YOU'VE WORKED FOR TIP O'NEIL,
JIMMY CARTER, THE HOST OF "HARDBALL" FOR YEARS, BUT WHAT
WAS YOUR FIRST WASHINGTON JOB?
>> I WAS A CAPITOL POLICEMAN, APPOINTED BY THE U.S. SENATOR
UNDER THE OLD PAY TROJAGE SYSTEM, AND I LOVED IT, I WORKED
IN THE OFFICE OF THE SENATOR IN THE MORNING TILL 3:00, WENT ON
THE SECOND SHIFT FROM 3:00 TO 11:00.
I WAS DOING THREE JOBS.
I LOVED PUTTING ON MY UNIFORM AND GUN AND DOING MY JOB.
I LOVED THE GUYS I WORKED WITH.
>> Stephen: AS SOMEONE WHO HAD THAT AS THE FIRST EXPERIENCE IN
WASHINGTON, D.C., WHAT WAS IT LIKE PERSONALLY FOR YOU TO WATCH
THE HORRIFIC EVENTS OF JANUARY 6, HOW DID THAT HIT HOME
FOR YOU?
>> IT'S LIKE SEEING YOUR CHURCH INVADED.
IT WAS LIKE BEING DEFILED, EVERYTHING YOU BELIEVED IN.
I USED TO LOVE -- I DO LOVE THAT BUILDING.
WHATEVER JOB I WAS, WHETHER TOP AIDE TO THE SPEAKER OR I WAS A
COP, I WOULD TAKE PEOPLE TO PLACES LIKE THE BRITISH STAIRS,
THE STAIRS COMING UP TOWARD THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES MET,
AND THERE ARE BULLET HOLES IN THE CEILING STILL, AND I SAID
LOOK AT THE BULLET HOLES, THE BRITISH CAME IN HERE AN BURNED
THE PLACE IN 1912.
I WOULD SIT ALONE AT NIGHT IN THE ROTUNDA WHERE THE PAINTINGS
ARE AND I WOULD THINK OF JOHN F.
KENNEDY LAID OUT AFTER HE WAS ASSASSINATED, I WOULD IMAGINE
HIM THERE.
I WOULD THINK OF LINCOLN GIVING THE SECOND INAUGURAL ADDRESS
THERE, TRYING TO EXPLAIN THE CIVIL WAR WHEN WE LOST 600,000
MEN AND TRYING TO EXPLAIN THAT ASPENNENS FOR SLAVERY, AND HE
DID THAT THERE.
AND F.M. D.R. GAVE HIS "WE HAVE NOTHING TO FEAR BUT FEAR ITSELF"
THERE.
MORE REPUBLICANS THAN DEMOCRATS IN 1964 IN THAT BUILDING.
SO MUCH HISTORY.
IT'S A CATHEDRAL TO DEMOCRACY.
THE 9/11 JOBS TRIED TO BLOW IT UP.
THEY WERE STOPPED IN PENNSYLVANIA BY THE COURAGEOUS
PASSENGERS.
ONE OF THE COPS I WORKED WITH SAID I WOULD DIE FOR THIS
BUILDING.
SO I WAS SO PROUD WHEN I GOT TO SEE THE GOOD PICTURES OF THESE
GUYS, MOSTLY MEN, ESPECIALLY THE AFRICAN-AMERICAN GUY IN THE
PICTURE LEADING THEM IN THE WRONG DIRECTION, REMEMBER, UP
THE STAIRS?
>> Stephen: OFFICER GOODMAN.
HE DIDN'T HAVE ANY REAL WEAPON, HE COULDN'T USE HIS
REVOLVER IN THAT SITUATION, JUST SO HE COULD PROTECT SENATOR
ROMNEY FROM UTAH GETTING KILLED MAYBE.
>> Stephen: WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF PEOPLE WHO WERE TRYING TO
SELL THIS OFF WHO SAY IT WAS NO WORSE THAN TOURISTS IN THE
ROTUNDA OR THE STATUARY HALL OR SAYING IT WASN'T REALLY AN
INSURRECTION, TRYING TO DOWNPLAY IT BECAUSE THE REPS KNOW THE
DEMOCRATS WILL POINT AT IT AND SAY YOU CAN'T TRUST THESE
PEOPLE?
>> WHAT WOULD THEY HAVE SAID IF THEY HAD CAPTURED THAT CROWD,
THE MOB, HAD CAPTURED THE VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED
STATES AND GOD KNOWS WHAT DO TO HIM.
THEY WERE AFTER EVERY MEMBER OF CONGRESS.
THEY WERE OUT FOR BLOOD AND EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT.
THEY WERE PROTECTED BY THEIR STAFFS AND THE POLICE.
THAT'S WHAT SAVED THEIR LIVES.
NOT THE CAUSE OF TRUMPISM.
TRUMP WAS ON A MARCH.
THE MEMBERS OF CONGRESS, DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICAN SWORE
AN OATH TO THE CONSTITUTION.
GENERAL MICHAEL FLYNN TOOK AN OATH TO THE CONSTITUTION, NOT
DONALD TRUMP.
THEY HAVE TO BE REMINDED THEY'RE OWED SOMETIMES.
>> Stephen: YOU'VE WRITTEN A NEW BOOK, AS I SAID BEFORE,
"THIS COUNTRY," ABOUT THE HISTORICAL EVENTS YOU LIVED
THROUGH.
WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE THE CURRENT MOMENT THE UNITED STATES IS
GOING THROUGH, WHAT PERIODS OF LEADERSHIP AND HISTORY IN THE
WORLD COME TO MIND FOR YOU?
>> WELL, STEVE, YOU KNOW, I WAS LUCKY IN MY LIFE TO BE AT THE
CENTER OF THE ACTION SO MUCH, THE FIGHTS.
I MEAN, I WAS ON THE HELICOPTER WHEN JIMMY CARTER WAS GOING DOWN
TO DEFEAT THAT MORNING.
HE LOST THE ELECTION BY 10 POINTS.
I WAS WITH TIP O'NEIL EVERY MORNING, THE GREAT SPEECH.
I WAS AT THE BERLIN WALL ON THE COMMUNIST SIDE WHEN THE WALL
OPENED UP AND I INTERVIEWED PEOPLE.
I'LL NEVER FORGET INTERVIEWING A YOUNG GUY IN HIS 20s, LOOKED
LIKE HE WAS AT BERKELEY IN THE '60s.
I SAID, WHAT DOES FREEDOM MEAN TO YOU TODAY, THE WALL COMING
DOWN?
HE SAID TALKING TO YOU, BECAUSE IT WAS A COUNTRY THAT WAS NOT
FREE AND THEY COULDN'T TALK TO PEOPLE LIKE ME.
I WAS IN SOUTH AFRICA WHEN NELSON MANDELA, ONE OF THE
GREATEST PEOPLE OF OUR TIME, ENCOURAGED THE PEOPLE OF SOUTH
AFRICA TO VOTE.
HE SAID WE'RE NOT GOING TO DO THIS THROUGH A RESOLUTION --
>> Stephen: I THINK WE HAVE A PHOTO OF YOU AND DESMOND TUTU.
>> DESMOND TUTU TO MY LEFT AND A SOUTH AFRICAN CAMERAMAN.
LOOK AT THE LINE ON THE BACK OF VOTERS.
IT'S LIKE FROM HORIZON TO HORIZON.
THAT HAPPENED BECAUSE ONE PERSON, NELSON MANDELA, SAID
WE'RE GOING TO HAVE AN ELECTION IN THIS COUNTRY, EVERYBODY GETS
TO VOTE, AND I'M NOT COMING OUT OF PRISON OUT OF 20 YEARS UNTIL
YOU LEGALIZE THE ANC AND THE COMMUNIST PARTY, HE WOULDN'T
LEAVE PRISON SO HE COULD HAVE A REAL ELECTION.
HE SAID WE'RE GOING TO MAKE IT WORK, THIS DEMOCRACY.
I THINK OF THE PEOPLE WAITING IN LINE IN AFRICA WITHOUT A CUP OF
TEA, WATER, WITHOUT A PLACE TO GO TO THE-BEDROOM AND I THINK OF
THE PEOPLE WHO DON'T TAKE DEMOCRACY SERIOUSLY IN THIS
COUNTRY.
THAT'S WHAT THEY WANT.
WE'VE HAD AN ELECTION EVERY YEAR SINCE 1788.
WE'RE THE FIRST REPUBLIC, AND IT'S ALWAYS WORKED.
BUT WE ALWAYS COUNTED ON PEOPLE WHO LOST ELECTIONS, JUST LIKE
WHEN YOU PLAYED TAG AS A KID, YOU SAY I'M IT, I LOST, AND TO
STAND BEFORE THEIR PEOPLE AND LOOK THEM IN THE EYE AND SAY I
LOST, THE OTHER PERSON WON, AND UNDER THAT SYSTEM, THAT PERSON'S
PRESIDENT NOW.
AND TRUMP WOULDN'T DO THAT ONE HONORABLE ACT.
HILLARY CLINTON HAD TO DO THAT AT THE PENNSYLVANIA HOTEL WHEN
SHE LOST, A SHOCKING LOSS AND SHE HAD TO SAY IT.
MITT ROMNEY, JOHN MCCAIN, AL GORE, EVERYONE STANDS UP AND
SAYS I LOST, IN THIS DEMOCRACY.
THAT'S WHAT MATTERS.
SOME PEOPLE LIKE HILLARY CLINTON GOT MORE VOTES AND THEY STILL
SAID I LOST BECAUSE THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE GOVERNS
VICTORY.
THAT IS THE ADMIRABLE THING.
I LOVE CONCESSION SPEECHES BECAUSE IT SHOWS THE HEART OF
PEOPLE WHO WANT TO BE IN POLITICS BUT ARE WILLING TO TAKE
THE RISK OF H HUMILIATION.
AT SOME POINT AS A POLITICIAN YOU HAVE TO TAKE THE RISK OF
BEING HUMILIATED OF PEOPLE SAYING WE DON'T WANT YOU
ANYMORE,.
GO BUT YOU'VE GOT TO TAKE IT AND THIS GUY CLINTON, THE MOST
HONORABLE THING ABOUT THE OFFICE IS THEIR WILLINGNESS TO WALK
AWAY FROM IT.
IT'S NOT YOURS.
>> Stephen: WE HAVE TO TAKE A QUICK BREAK.
WHEN WE COME BACK, I'LL ASK CHRIS ABOUT THE DAY HE LEFT
MSNBC AND WHETHER THAT TOOK ANYONE BY SURPRISE.