>>Jared Cohen: You've really heard a challenge framed, you know, across two very different
contexts, right? And in listening to the challenge that I sort
of hear, it is that radicalization is really about the process by which, you know, illicit
actors, you know, hijack impressionable young minds and exploit them for criminal purposes.
You know, as people that have worked in the solution space in two other different contexts
to our two colleagues here, you know, what do you hear are some of the potential problem-solving
ideas? >>Geoffrey Canada: Well, I mean, this has
been really fascinating to me because I am amazed at how young people gravitate towards
extremes. I mean, both out of curiosity and other -- but if there is an organized message
of recruitment, it happens without the adults knowing anything about it.
Meaning that that world exists and the adults aren't really connected to it at all.
There are two things I found very interesting. One is that one of the places that people
know our work the best is in prison. And I was just stunned that people know that.
They said, "Oh, yeah, Geoff. You're like a hero in there."
And the reason is because the prisoners understand if they had been in my program, they probably
wouldn't have been in prison. It was clear that I believe a certain set
of circumstances led these kids to do these things and end up in this place, and so here
they have somebody saying, "Oh, yeah, I know how you ended up there and we're trying to
stop you." And in most places there was no adult trying
to stop young people when they were at that impressionable age.
The second thing is that I have a lot of my young people who are organizing around negative
areas using the Internet. So we aren't -- I told you I'm old. So we're
not connected to it, right? But they are and we don't really know what's going on.
The last thing I'll say, just as a potential solution, one of the interesting things that
happened when AMEX decided to do the commercial and put us on it, I have met -- and people
think it had -- it didn't help with fundraising and stuff like that. What has happened is
I meet people all over the country who say to me, "You know what? I am so happy to see
that somebody is doing something" because it's the brand issue.
It's like there's a brand out there that says there's an answer, and if there's an answer
in Harlem, there's probably an answer in South Central and other things, and that's one of
the areas that I think we haven't really exploited. Folks who create brands and really get people
-- I agree with you. Everybody knows al-Qaeda.
I don't know a positive brand, right? If you want to say -- so what's -- I haven't heard
of anything. And the question is why? Because if I'm young and if I'm on the edge, where
do I hook into -- >>Maajid Nawaz: You're from New York, yeah?
>>Geoffrey Canada: I'm from New York. >>Maajid Nawaz: Right. So of course the whole
controversy there at the moment with the Park 51 Center. So we're involved in trying to
develop a positive message as an alternative, so we discredit the clash of civilization's
rhetoric. So many people are pushing out there that Islam and the West are at war with each
other. I mean, that's a false paradigm. Huntington's Theory is incorrect.
The true clash is between and within Muslims fighting for democratic rights versus those
who are totalitarian trying to control the vast majority of Muslims.
It's not Muslims versus the West. So on the 6th of October -- I mention this
because you're from New York. I'm debating a motion -- it's an Intelligence Squared debate
organized in New York on the 6th of October. The motion is Islam is a religion of peace,
and opposing the motion is one of the most prolific voices who is a critic of Islam Ayaan
Hirsi Ali, but what we're trying to do -- and we would like your support for this -- is
to develop a positive image, because without that positive image there's nothing for the
young people to grab onto and they will be attracted to the negative brand. And that's
what's happening at the moment. So your support would be welcome.
>>Geoffrey Canada: I'd be thrilled to be supportive of this.
>>Maajid Nawaz: Thank you. >>Jared Cohen: Alberto, let me ask you about
role models and then ask both Maajid and Paul and Geoff if you want to comment on it.
We spoke yesterday about the importance of role models who, you know, can be powerful
figures either in shaping negative sentiments or shaping positive sentiments. You want to
share your thoughts on that? >>Alberto C. Vollmer: Yeah. I wanted to take
up on what Paul was saying before. You know, one of the things we've found is
that the mothers of these guys, of these boys, of these young men are incredible. They do
everything. They're the mother, they're the father, they're everything, right?
Now, there's one problem. That mother needs a father next to -- to her to develop these
young men. What tends to happen around 12, 13 years old,
the mechanism is that they just go out, they need that male role model, you know, that
should be the father. They need the male role model. And who do they go after? They go after
a leader. They're not going to go after a loser. They're going to look for the hit man,
they're going to look for the drug dealer, they're going to look for the head of the
gang, and that's their new role model that they're going to latch on.
And without their even being conscious of it, they enter these gangs and then they can't
help it. Then how do you get out? Once you get in, there's no way out.
So for me, you know, one of the things that -- one of the programs that should really
be sort of worked on is how to rebuild fatherhood. I mean it sounds corny, but how to rebuild
this for these guys. Because -- and why do they come to Project Alcatraz. They're looking
for that role model, the positive role model. In that case, it's Jamie, it's myself, and
they want to be somebody else. They don't want to be stuck there killing people or trafficking
drugs. They're just like all of us. You know, they've got huge potential. They're bright.
You've got some geniuses there. And all of that potential is being flushed -- flushed
away. >>Jared Cohen: Now, Maajid, Paul, do you agree
with what Alberto is saying, and then can you comment a little bit on, you know, who
are some of the positive and negative role models that you saw growing up who could have
had either an exacerbating impact on your recruitment or a potential diverting impact
on your recruitment? >>Paul Carrillo: You know what? I'd have to
agree with Alberto, and it's similar to -- to what Maajid explained a while ago. It's extremely
difficult to get out, once you're in. So there's some similarities there.
And also, I mean, for me, it was, you know, protection, because even if you don't want
to be a gang member, if you live in the neighborhood --
>>Geoffrey Canada: Yes. >>Paul Carrillo: -- the kids from the other
side of the street are going to pick on you. So what are your options? Do you not join
the gang that you're familiar with and just let these kids beat you, or do you join the
gang and then the numbers are kind of evened out and maybe they won't pick on you as much.
That happens a lot. So a lot of times it's kind of like by force,
not by choice. You know, kind of choosing the lesser of two evils, and it's hard, it's
extremely difficult, but I think that father figure is key. Looking for somebody to kind
of aspire to be the power, the respect, the love, or what have you.
The unfortunate thing is that gang members, young gang members, don't realize the consequences
that come with that decision until it's too late, until they're deep into the gang, full
of tattoos, in prison, and then it's like, "Oh, my gosh, what the heck did I just do?"
>>Jared Cohen: Maajid, and then we'll come back to you, Alberto.
>>Maajid Nawaz: So there's actually another overlap between us, which is statistically
in the U.S., so many prisoners who are in prison for gang-related offenses are converting
to a radical interpretation of Islam, and they're doing that because they're angry.
So what we have at the moment is the demand for an extreme message out there that people
are joining on the ground. There is no demand being created for a positive
message, and I think that when I joined at 16, it's really sad to say that it's one of
the biggest problems in the world, not just in the States. Islamist radicalization is
one of the biggest problems. There was no positive role model that I could look to and
say "I'm going to channel my anger in this direction." I only had the negativity in front
of me saying, "You're oppressed, you're downtrodden. Look at Bosnia. Look at what happens to Muslims
in Europe. So join us, be angry, and cause a revolution in the world."
And that's what we quite literally did. You know, we had members of armies recruited
to our group attempting military coups in countries like Pakistan. They were arrested
in 2003. People that I recruited had their backs broken
in torture. It's this anger after anger after anger, and I think that it's sad to say that
at the moment, there is no prominent and visible positive alternatives. We're using music,
we're using arts and culture, we're using democratic messages to try and get young people
to, once again, make it as unfashionable as communism has become to join al-Qaeda and
to try and make the democratic message of pluralism and tolerance and respect something
that's trendy and fashionable to be associated with.
Salman over there, he's a good friend. He's helping. We need other musicians, other artists,
all of us in a coalition to try and make the positive role model attractive once again.
>>Jared Cohen: Our red light is on, so we do need to finish up and I'm going to give
Maajid and Paul the last words here, but let me frame something for you before you do that
because I want you to address your last words at the audience, again going back to the spirit
of Zeitgeist being a place of action. You know, you've listen to scholars who are
experts on radicalization and gangs. You look at, you know, what the media tells us. You
look at even what, you know, government is trying to do.
They all tell us it's a battle for the hearts and minds of young people, right?
But the question we have is, is it really -- when I hear you all speak -- when I hear,
Geoffrey, you, when I hear Alberto, you, as well, it's sounds to me like it's less a battle
for the hearts and minds, and it's more a challenge of alternatives.
So given that it's a challenge of alternatives, you have a whole audience of people here that
know how to build things. They build applications, they build programs, they build things that
actually for commercial purposes have that natural effect of diverting at-risk young
people away from recruitment. You know, what should all these people do?
What's your call to action for all of them? >>Paul Carrillo: I would say it has to be
a comprehensive collaborative approach, similar what we're trying to do with the Better L.A.
in Los Angeles, and people have to come to the table with what will.i.am discussed earlier
and the stuff that he's doing, the amazing work that Geoffrey is doing in education.
That's a big component of it. And then what Alberto is doing -- and it's
similar to -- to working with extremists. You know, the administration used to have
an approach of "We won't sit at the table with anybody who is on this list as a terrorist."
Well, we have the approach where, you know, now the new administration says "We'll sit
down and have a dialogue for peace with anybody that's willing to sit down and have a dialogue."
And that's what we do with gang members. If they're willing to sit down and say, "How
can we work this out, provide you with some jobs, tattoo removal, get you out of the situation
that you're in, then let's do it." >>Jared Cohen: Maajid?
>>Maajid Nawaz: I'm told in Pakistan I've spoken to over 10,000 students who are vulnerable
to joining some of the more angry organizations in that country, and what I would request
of everyone here is: Help me create this as a brand.
I mean, this is one of the most significant civilizational challenges of our time, and
we need to develop positive role models. We need to create a sustaining, a self-sustaining
model, and that requires artists, cultural figures, it requires businessmen to come in
and help me create this as a sustaining brand, because in Pakistan at the moment, we're trying
to launch this nationwide movement to promote democratic values and challenge extremism.
But the problem we're having is of course when you talk about challenging extremism,
it's -- many people want to step back because they're worried about being targeted, quite
legitimately so. But we need to be as brave for those people
who are willing to risk death and torture and imprisonment for angry ideas and we should
be just as willing to risk and sacrifice all of that for our own convictions.
So my challenge to everyone would be to help me develop this brand. We're working day in
and day out to try and do this but we're lacking resources and we're lacking that self-sustaining
model. >>Jared Cohen: Maajid, Paul, Geoff, Alberto,
thank you very much. [Applause]