- Motorsport is not cheap, and drifting is no exception.
But if you want to get into that slidey boy action
in an entry level JDM coupe of your own,
you've got a choice to make.
Do you go with the tried and true drift icons
that sis on the Nissan S chassis?
Or do you go with the young buck,
bet against the streak and back
the fresh blood of the 86 platform?
Even though they're from different eras,
these two chassis have a lot in common.
They're both lightweight, rear wheel drive coupes
from Japan, praised for their ability to get around
the track sideways, and punch above
their featherweight status.
If you've ever wondered which of these is better,
well today is the day you get to find out,
it's the Nissan Silvia versus the Toyota 86.
(upbeat music)
Some people in the office don't think I can stay
impartial on this one, maybe it's because
I drive an FRS and I've only ever owned
Toyotas, who can say?
But I love, I love the Silvias.
And against the 86, it's a matchup of weekend
warrior JDM hardtops that put precision
steering and chassis balance over power.
We've got five rounds to look at:
Performance, reliability, mods, looks and value.
Both the Silvia and the 86 were designed
to be affordable rear wheel drive cars
that light a spark with young enthusiasts,
and let you have a little fun on your commute to work.
They don't have a ton of power stock,
but where they both shine is in balance,
handling and controlability.
In round one, we are gonna look at both these
cars in terms of performance from the factory.
In 2020, the 86 starts with a slight advantage:
It's only seven years old, used ones are
under a 100,000 miles, and if you wanted,
you could get a brand-new one with Bluetooth,
a rear view camera and a g-force meter.
You get some creature comforts over the '90s car sure,
but in-terms of performance the main thing that's
gonna standout is the suspension and the transmission.
The short throw six speed that comes
with the 86 is crisp and smooth.
The suspension was continuously tested
to deliver the best combo of performance and comfort.
This car comes from the factory pretty much
ready to hit the track, at least in terms of suspension.
The Silvia is a car of the '90s,
and you'd expect it to be a little less refined.
Which is true, but the feeling that you are getting
is more tactile and responsive,
part of this is due to the multi-link rear suspension.
Compared to the double wishbone suspension of the 86,
the multi-link suspension is more adjustable
and more forgiving, while still being planted
and giving a stiff rear end.
The 86 is setup great from the factory,
and it outperforms the Silvia in ideal grip conditions.
But if you start to mess with it for better drifting,
the 86 is gonna be harder to get right.
Engine-wise, the Silvia outside of the US*
got an all aluminum SR20 engine.
This four banger was chucking out around 200 horsepower,
with later versions making up to 250 horsepower
with an upgraded turbo.
But that version was for Japan, Australia
and New Zealand only though, so good for you guys!
In the US of A the Silvia got the KA24 engine,
which coughed up only 155 horsepower
from the dual overhead cam version,
and even less from the single cam.
The 86 utilized a naturally aspirated flat four
from Subaru, a direct fuel injection system from Toyota,
and the engineering knowhow
of the chief engineer of the LFA.
(car engine roars)
But many people have been vocal about the disappointing
lack of power from the 86.
The current 86 makes 205 naturally aspirated horsepower.
Toyota was adamant that the car stay NA
for a pure driving experience, and because of that
the throttle response of the 86 is immediate and precise.
But the 86 has a disappointing torque dip
right in the middle of the rev range.
The car doesn't wake up again until 4,500 RPM,
that even the single cam KA24 engines
were making more torque, and we need torque right, right?
But power isn't what makes these cars fun.
One of the things that helps these cars
get around corners in either a drift or grip
configuration is the differential.
The Silvia came with a viscous limited-slip differential,
which is a very comfortable and Dailiable way
to still get some skids.
However, it doesn't lockup fully,
and VLSDs are really effected by heat.
On top of that, lower trims of the Silvia
came with an open diff, so you gotta make sure
you're buying the right one.
The 86 on the other hand came from
the factory with a Torsen LSD.
Mechanical LSDs can react much faster
than VLSDs, and they require less maintenance.
They are all around better for aggressive driving
and keeping your car doing what it's supposed to do.
On top of that, the 86 has a more ideal
center of gravity, the weight distribution
is a near-perfect 50-50, and the boxer engine
helps keep that weight down low, to reduce body roll.
Not all of a car's cornering ability
comes from the suspension and diff though.
Drift cars and grip cars both need a solid,
predictable chassis to perform well.
The S14 is an improvement stiffness-wise
over the S13, it's wider, longer and lower.
But neither chassis can quite matchup
with the level of rigidity of the more modern 86.
The S15 might give the 86 a run for its money,
but with a limited availability,
I can't give it as much weight in this argument
as I am the S13 and S14.
Both chassis though sit at about the same curb weight,
came from the factory with similarly skinny tires,
and have a similar wheelbase.
Round two, reliability:
It doesn't matter how sideways these cars can get
if the engine goes pop.
We are gonna take a look in this round
at reliability of these two cars
and the likelihood of having a big problem.
Similar to the last round, the 86 might start
with a slight advantage, just from being a newer car.
Even if both cars came from the factory
with exact same chassis, engines,
suspension and electronics, a 30 year old car would have
more issues than a seven year old car.
But, the Silvia came from an era of Japanese
economic stability that built some of the strongest,
most reliable power plants
that put current engines to shame.
The KA24 engine of the US Sivias may not
be all that powerful, but it is a workhorse.
Nissan mechanics say that with some regular
valve adjustments, 200,000 miles isn't a big ask.
The iron block of the KA24 means that it can take
more abuse than the high compression Subaru FA20.
The engine in the 86 was supposed to be less
of a ticking time bomb than the EJ platform
of the WRX, but driving it hard in the heat
has still occasionally resulted
in a spun bearing or engine knock.
Which is why anyone who takes an 86 to the the track
will recommend an oil cooler first.
On top of that, some 2013 models shipped
with weak valve springs, and luckily those were recalled.
But when Toyota had to take apart this Suby engine
that was all sideways and flat,
they didn't always put it back together right.
Some 86s had engine failure 500 miles after the recall.
So many failures were reported that there was
a class action lawsuit against Toyota and Subaru.
This scared plenty of owners away from
getting the recall done,
and there are still a few 2013s floating around
with those bad valve springs.
To add insult to injury, the KA24
is not the only Silvia engine we're looking at.
The SR20 is known to make 250,000 miles
with little beyond standard maintenance
besides maybe a new timing chain and a MAF sensor.
Its also got hydraulic lifters,
so it doesn't even need the valve regulation
that the KA24s do.
The SR20 wasn't available in the US,
but so many people have done the swap
and it's still OEM.
So that's the engines, but what about the rest of the car?
This is where the Silvia really starts to show its age.
The plastics inside are brittle and flimsy.
Cracked trim, cracked dash, broken bezels
are really common.
All the plastics are getting harder and harder
to find in good condition.
That may not sound like a big deal,
until you realize that the gas tanks are plastic as well.
You get a cracked one of those,
and you better hope you can junkyard dive a solid one,
because fixing it is a pain.
I know that sounds like I'm being a little nit-picky
on the Silvias, and in the interest of fairness,
the 86 does have some minor issues as well.
Like if you remove the front bumper ever,
even if the dealership does it,
after a few times you're gonna get bumper sag.
The body panels won't matchup as well,
and side markers will stat to like pop out left and right.
Mine does it, and it's annoying as (bleep)
Also there's the crickets.
Even though it's only a noise issue, the FA20 engine
is known to develop a chirping sound for no reason.
(engine rattles)
Before we get into the next round though,
I just wanna say thank you so much for supporting this show,
thank you for supporting "Donut."
Make sure that you're up to date on everything
we've got, 'cause we've got a lot more coming your way.
Round three, modifications:
Both these cars are great from the factory,
and even though they've got a few shortcomings,
they can easily be fixed, or accidentally made worse
if you start wrenching around and adding mods to your car.
The aftermarket for both the 86 and the Silvia
are enormous, there are companies that do all their business
just serving these two communities.
For light mods you can find and build almost
anything with these two.
New parts are being made for both,
and options are plentiful.
The biggest difference with these two cars
comes when you try and build power.
Any Silvias and 86s aren't likely to push past
250 horsepower, you can go for aftermarket
force induction, but that's always expensive.
And there are turbo versions of
the SR20 and FA20 from the factory.
If you want a Silvia with an OEM turbo,
the swap will be pretty much plug and play.
For the 86 however, this is not the case.
The WRX engine isn't a direct swap like the SR20 is.
In fact there are no direct swaps for the 86 platform.
If you wanna make boost in an 86,
you're gonna be looking at an aftermarket kit,
which is expensive.
Also your reliability will be way down
compared to the OEM, and even if your boosted
FA20 was reliable, it still doesn't compare
to the SR20 DET when it comes to building power.
The stock internals can handle up to 400 horsepower,
which for a four cylinder aluminum block is really good.
So from here, the next step in power for both
is the engine swap.
Both cars are great candidates for engine swaps,
and you can find some really crazy swaps out there.
A skilled mechanic and maybe a fabricator
can do almost any swap they want.
But what if you're not?
what if you're like me and your knowledge of working
on cars comes from YouTube videos, and your staring
down the barrel of your first engine swap?
Well then the Silvia might be the better choice.
No JDM manufacturer is more common for swaps
than Nissan, and that's not just because
the US Silvias needed the power,
and it's not just because the SR20 DET is a direct swap,
it's because the Silvia is one of the most forgiving,
proven and plentiful swap platforms out there.
Not only does it have an engine bay that can handle
almost any swap, but the transmission tunnel
is so wide that any transmission can probably fit,
and all you'll need at that point is a custom driveshaft.
But you may not even need that, because you can find
prefab driveshafts for RB swaps, LS swaps 2J swaps.
In fact, RB swaps are so common in Silvias,
I'm pretty sure there are more in the US
than there are skylines.
Sure, it means your build might be a common one,
but the more people that build it,
the cheaper and easier it gets for the next person.
The whole rear subframe is also really simple.
So changing a diff to handle more power,
or putting in a full-on drift spec quick change diff
is a more simple process than in any other car.
But the 86 does have the room under the hood
for any normal swap.
The hood is long, they set the driver up
closer to the middle of the car,
and the engine bay is wide
because it was designed for a boxer engine.
Strangely though, this does have drawbacks
if you wanna go drifting.
Since the frame rails are so far apart,
getting an angle kit on the car means that you're
gonna need to widen your track a whole lot.
It's not the end of the world but it's another
cost multiplier that starts to make the 86
not as entry level of an option as it originally looked.
But what if you're not a first-timer, what if you're
building a full blown race car.
Well let's take a look at Formula Drift.
The 86 has some strong representation in FD
with the likes of Daijiro Yoshihara and Ryan Tuerck.
It's the second most popular chassis on the grid,
but it is severely outnumbered by the number one
most popular chassis, you guessed it the Silvia.
In 2019 there were 11 Silvias entered in pro division alone,
that's nearly triple the amount of 86s.
And it's not just because the Silvias are the old standard.
The S chassis cars just work.
There are so many supporting mods
and options for suspension, angle kits and rear ends
that you can dial into the car exactly the way you want it.
Dai Yoshihara won a championship in a 240SX in 2012.
Then in 2014, said that his new BRZ was harder
to setup and get dialed in properly.
Odi Bakchis left a paid seat driving
a Genesis Coupe to drive his own S14.
Look, even if this is a self-fulfi6lling prophecy
and the Silvia only has parts because people
need the parts in the first place,
the results speak for themselves.
Round four, the looks:
I'd love to think that we all like cars for performance,
you know, for a true melding of man and machine.
But let's be honest, sometimes it's all about the looks.
And this is a tough round to stay impartial on.
So instead of giving you any reason to doubt
my judgment, we've got someone to talk about
the look and style of Silvias:
S14 owner and host of "Money Pit," Zack Joe.
- Okay, run it.
And fanboy I will, I get all hot and bothered
every time I see the S14 sitting in the driveway.
Growing up where I grew up there really wasn't
much of a JDM culture,
but what I did get were Japanese car magazines,
and one of the beefiest boys
to grace those pages was the S14.
Which is one of the reasons I've always wanted one so badly.
All S chassis cars have that look, that perfect 90s look,
but that has also aged perfectly well.
Other 90s cars with more curves, like the Celica
and the Mustang, those feel really dated.
But the Silvias are like baby GTRs,
they're like baby Godzillas, and this one's green!
Anyway, each S chassis car brings variety:
There are S13 convertibles if that's your style.
There are hatchback S13s that also have popup headlights,
which you know is the most important thing
you can have on a car.
And then there's the S14, ooh baby, the S14!
Well the Zenkis the first iteration of the S14
was longer and wider than the S13.
Then the facelift S14s, the Koukis had such
an aggressive front end that they looked
like they could bench press their own curb weight.
The headlights flowing into the body lines of the hood
make this a car to fall in love with.
And if you were lucky enough to live in a place
where they sold S15s, oh boy you got it good.
Those had the best front end of all in my opinion.
The front end with the squinty headlights
that look like they were trying to stare
you down and seduce you kind of at the same time.
The S chassis cars could straight beat you up,
and they could definitely beat up any FRS, right (chuckles).
The Silvias can make great looking cars,
but they don't compare to the 86.
In its stock form the 86 is just much more obviously
a sports car, it's got sleek smooth lines,
great proportions, and it looks good from any angle.
In the design process, Toyota took styling cues
from the drop dead gorgeous Toyota 2000GT.
It looks good enough to stay stock,
and with a few add-ons you can really set it off.
You'd think with a big aftermarket,
this uniformity would be fixed, but most 86s
end up with Valenti tail lights, RPF1s
and an Instagram handle under the C pillar.
A month ago, we posted a poll on Twitter
asking about the OEM looks of the S14 and 86.
A lot of people commented with some rational opinions:
61% for the Nissan, and 39% for the Toyota.
A big thanks to my fellow "Donut" host Zach Joe,
for stepping in to help talk about the Silvias.
His S14 has an RB25 in it and it is sweet.
If you wanna see more of that car,
check out his show "Money Pit" every Wednesday
on "Donut Media," where he's gonna be working on that,
his MX5, and hopefully a bunch of my cars as well.
Round five, value:
In the final round, we are gonna look at the actual
cost of buying one of these cars,
and what you get for the money.
Straight away, the 86 seems more expensive.
It's newer, its got more comforts as standard,
and it hasn't been replaced by a new model
yet to drive the price down.
So, if you're in the market for an 86,
you're looking at an average of about 14,000 US dollars.
Salvage ones have come down maybe as low as eight grand
without any major body damage,
and new ones fresh off the lot can be as much as 30 grand.
I'm gonna tell you right now, I love my FRS,
but I wouldn't spend 30 grand on one of these.
But if a brand new car is your thing, and you want
a track worthy coupe, there's literally no better Option.
This is one of the cheapest new coupes,
and as far as bang for your buck,
it was called car of the year by "Top Gear,"
best driver's car by "Autocar," a top ten pick
by "Car and Driver," and it's also an IIHS
top safety pick, whatever that means.
So what about the Silvia, has the dreaded drift tax
really made them that expensive?
Well yes, there are people that are asking nearly
20 grand for a car older than Myspace.
Clean S14s are selling for almost as much
as the original MSRP.
These aren't stock cars though,
they're usually already SR20 swapped,
or full of aftermarket parts.
That in and of itself is a gamble,
or it could add a lot of value to the original car.
But the Silvia's a blank canvas right,
so what about for a project car?
Well you can find a few that haven't been built out,
but even then, a mostly stock S13 that's just old,
you're still looking at above four grand,
and for S14s, even more.
And while you can have fun with a KA24 and stock suspension,
you'll end up spending more than the 86,
to get the car where you want it.
The drift tax is a real thing.
(TV static)
(loud whistling
- People think.
- You know we've had a lot of fun here today,
but do you know what's not fun?
The drift tax.
But there is a way that you can help:
Play down the S chassis.
For just one post a day, we can all drive down
the cost of Silvias, and maybe, just maybe
we won't be shelling out more than 5k
for a roller project car with a cracked gas tank.
Together we can make a difference.
(testcard beeps)
So now we know what the Silvia costs,
but what about the value, what are you getting
for the money?
Well since the Silvia is a blank canvass,
you only get out of it what you put into it.
It's amazing that these cars have not only
held onto, but in some cases gained value.
They're mean looking but understated.
They're flexible in space but stiff in chassis.
And once the S15 can be imported,
maybe the rest of them will finally drop in price.
The 86 is great value for money,
and if you buy one I guarantee
you will have a good time.
But what do you think, will the new
2021 86 change the debate?
Will my FA20 engine eventually blow up?
Let us know in the comments below.
Be sure to follow "Donut Media" on Twitter
and Instagram, be sure to check out the
past guest podcast on our podcast channel tomorrow.
And I'll be back here next week.