WE CAUGHT UP WITH WILY ABOUT HIS NEW BOOK AND WHAT IT’S LIKE TO
BE A WHISTLE-BLOWER IN TODAY’S
INFORMATION AGE.
INFORMATION AGE. >> Reporter: YOU’RE OUT WITH
THIS BOOK THIS WEEK.
WHAT INCREDIBLE TIMING TO BE
WRITING ABOUT YOUR EXPERIENCE OF
THE WHISTLE-BLOWER, WITH WHAT’S
HAPPENING RIGHT NOW.
FOR THOSE WHO DON’T KNOW YOUR
PRETTY REMARKABLE STORY K YOU
GIVE ME THE CLIFF NOTES OF WHAT
THIS BOOK IS AND WHAT YOUR
EXPERIENCE HAS BEEN.
>> YEAH.
>> YEAH. SO THE BOOK IS ABOUT SORT OF MY
JOURNEY FROM BEING RECRUITED AT
A UK-BASED MILITARY CONTRACTOR
THAT SPECIALIZED IN INFORMATION
AND PSYCHOLOGICAL OPERATIONS
WHERE WE WERE LOOKING AT, YOU
KNOW, SOME OF THE WAYS THAT WE
CAN USE DATA AND PROFILING TO
IDENTIFY PEOPLE WHO WOULD BE
MORE VULNERABLE TO BE TARGETED
BY EXTREMIST ORGANIZATIONS AND
HOW TO MITIGATE THAT PROBLEM TO
THE ACQUISITION OF THAT COMPANY
BY AN ALT-RIGHT BILLIONAIRE WHO
PUT STEVE BANNON IN CHARGE OF
THE COMPANY, WHO BECAME MY BOSS.
AND WATCHING THE WORK THAT I AND
OTHERS WERE PUTTING THEIR HEART
AND SOUL INTO BEING COMPLETELY
INVERTED.
INVERTED. WHERE THE SAME KIND OF PEOPLE,
TYPICALLY YOUNG UNMARRIED.
MEN WHO WERE MORE PRONE TO
PARANOID IDEATION WERE BEING
TARGETED NOT TO MITIGATE
EXTREMISM BUT TO RADICALIZE THEM
FURTHER WITH THE ALT-RIGHT.
YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE THINGS I
THINK THE BOOK SORT OF HELPS
DRAW PARALLEL TO IS, LIKE, THAT
THERE IS A PROBLEM WITH
EXTREMISM IN AMERICA.
I HOPE THAT WHEN PEOPLE READ IT,
THEY TAKE SXAUZ THINK, EVEN IF
THE COMPANY HAS RESOLVED, THE
PEOPLE ARE STILL AROUND.
MANY OF WHOM ARE WORKING IN THE
TRUMP CAMPAIGN.
TRUMP CAMPAIGN. MY WORRY IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN
CHINA DECIDES TO BECOME THE NEXT
CAMBRIDGE ANALYTICA.
CAMBRIDGE ANALYTICA. >> WITH THE WHISTLE-BLOWER
COMPLAINT, WHEN YOU HEAR THE
PRESIDENT SAY THINGS LIKE SPIES
AND TREASON AND REMEMBER WHAT WE
USED TO DO IN THE OLD DAYS.
AS A WHISTLE-BLOWER YOURSELF,
WHAT’S YOUR RESPONSE TO THAT?
HOW DO YOU FEEL WHEN YOU HEAR
THAT KIND OF RHETORIC?
>> WE NEED TO CELEBRATE
WHISTLE-BLOWERS.
WHISTLE-BLOWERS. I DON’T JUST SAY THAT BECAUSE
OF, YOU KNOW, MY OWN STORY.
I THINK, TOO, THE NUMBER OF
TIMES OTHER WHISTLE-BLOWERS HAVE
TALKED TO ME AFTER I CAME
FORWARD, THEY SHARED THEIR
STORIES.
STORIES. WE NEED TO TAKE PAUSE AND, I
THINK, SHOW A BIT MORE CONCERN
AND RESPECT FOR THAT PROCESS.
>> BECAUSE IT’S A HUGE RISK.
I IMAGINE WHEN YOU’RE DECIDING
TO DO THIS YOU’RE NOT LIKE, OH,
MAN, THIS IS GOING TO BE A FUN
RIDE I’M ABOUT TO EMBARK ON.
>> NO.
>> NO. ONE OF THE THINGS I TALK ABOUT
IN THE BOOK IS LIKE HOW
COMPLICATED IT IS.
PARTICULARLY WHEN YOU’RE -- WHEN
YOU’RE SIMULTANEOUSLY REPORTING
PEOPLE WHO SAT ON THE NATIONAL
SECURITY COUNCIL OF THE UNITED
STATES AND ALSO THE RUSSIAN
AMBASSADOR.
AMBASSADOR. AND, YOU KNOW, HOW COMPLICATED
AND SOMETIMES MESSY THAT CAN BE.
>> I THINK WHAT’S INTERESTING
FOR PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND, TOO,
YOU BLOW THE WHISTLE AND THERE’S
ALL THIS COMPLICATED FALLOUT.
SOME OF WHICH YOU ANTICIPATE,
SOME OF WHICH YOU DON’T.
THEN AT THE END OF IT, SOMETIMES
THE PROBLEM IS SOLVED BUT A LOT
OF TIMES IT’S MUCH, MUCH MORE
COMPLICATED THAN THAT AND SOME
LOOSE ENDS -- LIKE WE’RE STILL
VERY MUCH DEALING WITH THE
FALLOUT OF WHAT YOU WRITE ABOUT.
>> ONE OF THE THINGS I TALK
ABOUT IN THE BOOK IS WE NEED TO
REALLY HAVE A CONVERSATION ABOUT
THE IMPACT OF TECHNOLOGY ON OUR
DEMOCRACY.
DEMOCRACY. I PERSONALLY DO NOT THINK THAT
RELEGATING SO MUCH OF OUR PUBLIC
FORUM AND PUBLIC DISCOURSE TO
PRIVATE TECH COMPANIES IS A GOOD
IDEA.
IDEA. I THINK WE NEED TO VALUE IT MORE
THAN THAT.
THAN THAT. I OFFERED SUGGESTIONS ABOUT WHAT
WE COULD DO OR AT LEAST WHERE TO
START THAT CONVERSATION.
>> WHISTLE-BLOWERS ARE OFTEN
PRAISED BY SOME PERCENT OF THE
POPULATION AND THEN THERE IS
ALSO BLOW BACK AND VILIFIED.
HAVING THE EXPERIENCE THAT
YOU’VE HAD AND I’M SURE YOU’VE
SEEN BOTH SIDES OF THAT AS WELL,
HOW DO YOU INTERPRET THIS MOMENT
WE’RE IN WITH REGARD TO HOW WE
TREAT AND UNDERSTAND
WHISTLE-BLOWERS?
WHISTLE-BLOWERS? >> FOR ME, I THINK PARTICULARLY
WHEN I LOOK AT WHAT’S HAPPENING
NOW WITH THE WHISTLE-BLOWER --
WITH RESPECT TO UKRAINE AND ALL
THE PHONE CALLS, IT’S SURPRISING
TO HEAR REPUBLICANS, FOR
EXAMPLE, TALK ABOUT, YOU KNOW,
HOW, YOU KNOW -- TO CREATE A
PARTISAN RESPONSE TO SOMETHING
THAT SHOULD REALLY BE, FRANKLY,
CONCERNING TO EVERYBODY.
IN THIS CASE, IT SOUNDS LIKE
THIS PERSON DID EVERYTHING THEY
SHOULD, RIGHT?
SHOULD, RIGHT? THEY WENT TO THE INDEPENDENT
LEGAL COUNSEL, THE INSPECTOR AND
IT WENT THROUGH THE --
>> OFFICIALS IN THE JUSTICE
DEPARTMENT ARE SAYING THAT
PERSON ABSOLUTELY WENT BY THE
BOOK.
BOOK. >> RIGHT.
>> RIGHT. AND YET YOU STILL HAVE THE
PRESIDENT IMPLYING THIS PERSON
SHOULD BE LYNCHED.
IT DOESN’T MATTER WHAT THE
TECHNICAL PROCESSES ARE.
YOU KNOW, THAT HAS A CHILLING
EFFECT.
EFFECT. AND, YOU KNOW, IF YOU’RE -- IF
YOU ARE AN AMERICAN AND YOU WANT
TO KNOW WHAT’S HAPPENING IN YOUR
GOVERNMENT, PARTICULARLY WHEN
SOMETHING GOES WRONG, YOU WANT
WHISTLE-BLOWERS TO FEEL SAFE.
AND, YOU KNOW, THE FACT THAT WE
HAVE PARTICULARLY REPUBLICANS
NOT CALLING OUT THE PRESIDENT