well joining me now is Susan McKee a
health psychologist from University
College London a member of the
government's behavior science Advisory
Committee and the behavioural scientist
Magda Osmond from Queen Mary's
University Susan Mikki first the Prime
Minister is making a national TV address
in just over half an hour would you like
to see him announcing a full national
lockdown forcing people to stay at home
well I think what we've seen so far is
that people haven't been following the
very general advice but the advice has
only been very general there hasn't been
instruction to stay at home people have
been told to not take part in
non-essential travel but it's not clear
what non-essential is or to
significantly limit seeing friends and
family what a significantly limit mean
so I do think we need clear instructions
as to what people need to do and your
committee advises the government do you
think have you been sending that message
to the government have you been listened
to and I should say this I'm speaking as
an individual expert not as a member of
that committee and we submit our
evidence and the evidence is taken on
board but alongside evidence that comes
from modelers evidence that comes from
clinicians and biologists evidence that
comes from people who know about the
state of the health service all of that
gets put into a pot and then presumably
combined with other political economic
decisions that we're not party to so why
do you think the government hasn't gone
further faster I think it's difficult to
know from where am I am I probably
haven't got any more information than
other people have I think at the
beginning there was a concern that maybe
the population wouldn't go along with
what the government was trying to do in
terms of restricting people's freedoms
and what they used to but I think it's
become quite clear that the population
are not only supportive of what's being
done but want more to be done I think
that's become very clear over the last
couple of weeks let me put that to Magda
Osman the population citizens of the UK
want the government to go further do you
agree with that well they might do but I
think this is where also the media have
a role to play in reinforcing the the
necessary changes that we have to make
to our life so for instance if you see
images of people flouting the social
distancing rules then you might use that
as a way to reinforce your own behaviors
if you see images of empty streets then
that also has a consequence so the
extent to which we want to actually
regulate our behaviors is in relation to
how other people behave so the more you
reinforce the fact that it's important
to maintain social distancing and home
isolation and you see images that
reinforce that also through the media
because that's a source by which we
receive information is no doubt going to
be significant to the way people adapt
and they change their behavior so would
you be happy for the government to keep
nudging people in the right direction
rather than saying you must stay inside
and we're going to make sure that you do
I think we have to recognize the
responsibilities and roles that we play
and also that our actions have
consequences on the media people around
us so and also on top of that people
rely on multiple sources of information
to determine how it is that they need to
act so let me just go back to Susan
Makena of course there are significant
mental and physical health consequences
of being locked inside forced to stay
inside are you concerned about the
consequences particularly people living
in cramped flats that this might
actually be putting their lives more at
risk by forcing them to stay inside
absolutely I think we've got to think
through the consequences of what people
will be asked to do so one issue that's
really important and hasn't been solved
and it's been on the table for a couple
of weeks now is self-employed people and
people in the gig economy there are
millions and millions in this country
and they can't afford to stay at home 90
pounds a week will not feed a family so
the government has to put in place
policies that will make
possible practically financially
materially possible for people to stay
at home they also need to make sure
there's proper resourcing of communities
mobilization of communities so that
people feel looked after and cared for
in their own home and also they may need
to make sure that everybody has the
community communication channels so they
can keep in touch with their family
friends their loved ones in whatever way
is needed that nobody is cut off so
there are certain things that need to be
put in place very rapidly if this policy
is going to work
magda Osment tens of thousands of
Italians have been caught flouting the
lockdown rules if lockdown is imposed
and if the Prime Minister does announce
something of the sort do you think
Britons will be more disciplined than
that or not well I think in general what
will happen is the the more that the
social distancing and home isolation is
reinforced then you see more people
accept that then what you'll see some
form of social norming so that is that
as I said people regulate the way they
behave relative to others so the more
that you see people are actually staying
at home social distancing that will have
a reinforcing effect on the way that
each individual decides how to act so
the more of that that you see the more
likely is that people will be compliant
with that the issue is how you sustain
that for a long period of time Susan
Mickey do you agree with that I do and
if you look at the evidence there are a
range of problems of people living in
this sort of isolation conditions people
can get frustrated they can get bored
they can get lonely they can get
depressed these things get worse over
time and also over a long period of time
people have a tendency not to adhere to
it so much so this for these things need
to be attended to and is there any
guarantee that total lockdown of the
kind we've seen in China Italy France
that it works because China's just
coming out of that we don't actually
know if it's going to stop a second wave
of the infections doing
well that's a that's a whole other
question I mean there's one thing about
will the isolation work in terms of will
people stay in their houses and not go
out and infect each other is what's
happening at the moment that's something
we can discuss right now the issue about
a second wave really needs to have
epidemiologists and biologists and
people who know a lot about pandemics
and that's beyond what I know about fair
enough
magda Osman you've seen businesses
closing down went before the
government's told them to the government
said take away shops can stay open
they're closing down is there a sense in
which businesses are leading this and
the government's following so I can't
speak to that necessarily but what I'll
reiterate is the main point that I'm
making which is that the more signals
that you receive from multiple sources
and from multiple organizations that are
adopting social distancing and home
isolation the more likely is that you're
going to have people adhere to that so
the second issue is well once you're in
lockdown you're at home for a long
period of time how do you stay healthy
how do you maintain mental and physical
health yeah so you know people will be
tempted to want to go out and run they
can't go to the gym anymore so we have
to be and we are ingenious and adaptive
in the way that we can change our
behavior so there needs to be a positive
spin on this which yeah how can we stay
at home and stay healthy exercise learn
new habits which is what we'll have to
do so we need to start adapting our
behaviors and there's positive ways that
we can actually do that I think people
are actually interacting with each other
through social media or on the phone
more and so on and know if that is
needed