the catholic church has renewed a deal
it made two years ago with china
which is an officially atheist communist
state concerning bishops there
the agreement now gives the pope a final
say over the appointment of them
but beijing is the one who gets to come
up with the choices
chinese authorities had previously
selected bishops without the say of the
vatican
and a division formed between state
sanctioned clergy
and underground bishops who operated
outside state control
the former bishop of hong kong cardinal
joseph zen has spoken up about this a
pro-democrat he has expressed concern
over the church's engagement with china
here's dw's interview with cardinal zen
china and the vatican recently renewed a
secretive agreement signed two years ago
it allowed both beijing and the holy see
a say in appointing bishops in china
former hong kong bishop cardinal joseph
sen accused the secretary of state
cardinal parolin
of betraying the 12 million catholic
populations
to appease the communist regime they
always say
a bad agreement is better than no
agreement
i cannot understand a bad agreement
means
a agreement which is immoral which is
against
our faith how can it be better than no
agreement
incredible so it's a is a a big betrayer
and i suspect that pauline wants to
to have this uh diplomatic relation
re-established but that's very bad
because uh
that's a political thing it's not uh
religious uh
we are religion so we first of all is
our faith
cardinal sen journeyed to rome earlier
this month in hopes to meet the poor but
in vain
he is worried that the underground
church in china will face even more
persecution
as state-run church gained legitimacy
from this secret agreement
the two years since the agreement the
things went wrong wrong very wrong
because the the underground received no
support from the radical
the old bishops die and
the holy see don't give new bishops to
the underground
they give many bishops to the official
church
and now in the future church all the
bishops are legitimate
you made them legitimate but they are
still bad people there
and so the underground fear abundant
betrayed
because they are those faithful to the
authority of the pope
cardinal sen was born in shanghai 88
years ago
he came to hong kong in 1948 just before
the communists took power in china
he thinks the vatican is on the wrong
track of us politik the appeasement
policy
towards beijing the pope john paul ii
the pope benedict they had very
different experience
they lived under nazism
then and communism
from russia and the pope comes from
south america
it's understandable that pope francis
has
sympathy for the communists because
companies in south america
are good people they come out to defend
the poor people
under the totalitarian military
government
but now china is under the communists
the companies are the persecutor of
politics
actually it was a failure in the in
europe but now they use same method for
for for china so it was a disaster
he's been an outspoken critic of the
communist regime over the years
that could put him in risk under the
national security law imposed by beijing
but he refused to remain silent i would
be a liar if
i say i i'm not worried everybody is
worried to lose his freedom huh
and but that's okay because uh
you see we we believe in god and
uh when god gives you a duty he
he is going to give you also the
strength to do that duty okay
for more we have martin gack dw's
religion correspondent joining us martin
cardinal zen just uh talked about
his point of view and it does seem as if
it's morally complex for the vatican to
be engaging with a country like china
with its human rights track record
what is the point of view of pope
francis i think that there is a
political concern
and that political concern is uh how is
it that one deals with
a government that has had a rough going
with the religious group
that essentially the vatican leads or
represents and the second question is
the moral question
how is it that the vatican should
position itself in relation with a
country that has actually a very well
established record
of human rights violations the position
of this vatican is actually one that is
fairly understandable which is that they
concentrate on engagement
because they think that actually this
engagement leaves the communities the
catholic communities in china
at a very serious disadvantage so the
position is not perfect but that is
probably because
it is impossible in such a situation to
actually produce a perfect
solution the issue here is if you have
people on the ground that are dependent
on the good offices of the vatican then
the vatican has to engage with the
chinese government
obviously this doesn't please everybody
and cardinal zen is one of them
the u.s is another actor in the same
position well you just mentioned the
united states cardinal zen had
tried to gain an audience at the vatican
with the pope he didn't get one
another person who tried to meet with
the pope was u.s secretary of state mike
pompeo
and he wasn't able to gain an audience
what was that about
well i think that you know the issue
with cardinal zen
and but much more pronounced with with
mike pompeo is that they
come into the vatican or they convert
conversations with the vatican
essentially in the middle of what are
very public battles
between china and
regions i mean in the in the in the
immediate geographical space but also
sort of an electoral battle in the case
of the us
and this is something that the vatican
systematically and it's not only this
pope has essentially avoided which is
getting involved in what are essentially
public campaigns so
this vatican is one this pope is one
that has done most of his policy his
policy work
specifically in issues of international
affairs behind closed doors we find out
only
months later exactly what is that was
happening so i think that the reaction
in a sense is correct to say that they
were parallel i mean
the vatican was avoiding the spotlight
into which cardinal zen and mike pompeo
wanted to pull the vatican in
one of the things cardinal den was
talking about was the situation of the
climate in china and it is a fact that
there are bishops that the vatican
recognizes
before this agreement from two years ago
that the chinese government does not
recognize and these bishops have been
operating
underground they've suffered that's
right for their beliefs
and in fact my understanding is at least
one of them to my knowledge
was arrested this year he was 70 he is
70 years old
do you feel like some people at least
feel as if the vatican has turned its
back on their most faithful in china
i think that there is a there is you
know justification probably in the sense
that
if china is the government i mean it's
actually
uh treating this way catholic
communities and particularly
bishops and priests appointed by the
vatican without essentially a
certification of the of the chinese
communist party
then dealing with the chinese government
is essentially a form of betrayal
but i think that this leads us in a way
back to the first question which is
how is the vatican to calculate how to
protect these communities
other than to some degree engaging the
communist party
so i mean it's quite clear that simply
getting out of the stage and letting the
chinese government do as they please
it's no solution at all it might be very
satisfying morally it might be very good
to be able to say well we have
done the right thing in terms of
principles but it leaves all of those
people that you just mentioned in a very
precarious situation
now we know cardinal zen's point of view
and feelings um
is there controversy among the church
leaders about pope francis's decision
most certainly most certainly i mean
it's not it's not a it's not
it's it's not a decision i mean the
extension of the agreement with china
that was taken lightly
also because there is a very strong
internal fight which actually pities um
pits sorry pits um conservatives within
the church
against many of the people that
circulate around the
the the the popes the pope sphere so
in a way what pompeo and now zen
and zen has been saying for really quite
a long time especially in the context of
battles that
politically have to do a lot with china
as in the u.s
uh you know really give ammunition to a
lot of the people that are standing
there criticizing the pope
martin gack thank you my pleasure
you