LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, MY NEXT GUEST TONIGHT HAS BEEN A
WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF, A PRESIDENTIAL SPEECHWRITER, AND A
POLITICAL COMMENTATOR FOR OVER 20 YEARS.
YOU KNOW HIM AS THE HOST OF "HARDBALL," PLEASE WELCOME CHRIS
MATTHEWS!
♪ ♪ ♪
>> Stephen: THANKS FOR COMING BACK.
>> HA!
( LAUGHTER ) I'M BACK!
>> Stephen: LAST TIME WE SPOKE--
>> YES, SIR.
>> Stephen: WAS RIGHT AROUND THE INAUGURAL, JANUARY OF 2017.
>> YEAH.
>> Stephen: AND WE WERE SPECULATING ABOUT THE NEXT NINE
TO 10 MONTHS, AND HERERY WITH AGAIN.
AND I SAID TO YOU WHEN YOU LEFT, "COME BACK WHEN WE HAVE
SOMETHING ON THE BOOKS."
WHAT DO YOU SEE, AS SOMEBODY WHO COVERS POLITICS AND BEEN IN
POLITICS, WHAT DO WE HAVE ON THE BOOKS NOW?
>> I THINK THIS HALLOWEEN, AMERICA'S COMING AS DONALD
TRUMP, WHICH IS PRETTY SCARY.
( LAUGHTER ).
>> Stephen: HE REPRESENTS THE UNITED STATES NOW.
>> HE HAS BECOME THE SYMBOL OF OUR COUNTRY TO THE WORLD, AND
IT'S PRETTY FRIGHTENING.
AND I THINK THE WORLD IS-- THAT ALWAYS SORT OF RESENTED US AND
IS JEALOUS OF US, NOW FEELS A LITTLE SORRY FOR US.
I REALLY THINK THAT TIMES HAVE CHANGED.
AND, BY THE WAY, DON'T YOU GET THE SENSE, ALTHOUGH HE'S A
LITTLE NEATER THAN COLOMBO, THAT THIS GUY MUELLER IS LIKE
COLUMBOW, "JUST OF JUST ONE MORE QUESTION.
JUST ONE MORE QUESTION."
>> Stephen: AS TRUMP SHUTS THE WHITE HOUSE DOOR ON HIM.
>> AND HE WALKS AROUND WITH THAT 300-POUND ATTACHE CASE WITH HIM,
NO HAIR OUT OF PLACE.
I THINK THE GUY IS GOING TO SLOWLY BUILD HIS CASE AGAINST
THE TRUMP ENTERPRISE, THE ENTIRE TRUMP ENTERPRISE, STARTING WITH
THE GUY WHO OPENED UP THE RELATIONS WITH RUSSIA, FOLLOWING
UP THAT HIS SON-IN-LAW DID IT.
IT'S GOING TO BE A SLOW, INEVITABLE PROCESS OF DEVELOPING
THE CLOSURE BETWEEN THE TRUMP PEOPLE AND THE RUSSIANS.
AND I'LL TELL YOU, I'VE NEVER SEEN-- I'VE BEEN IN POLITICS FOR
50 YEARS, DIFFERENT SIDES OF THE FIGHT, JOURNALISM AND POLITICS--
I'VE NEVER MET A RUSSIAN.
I NEVER HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH RUSSIANS.
THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH RUSSIANS AS INDIVIDUALS BUT THIS
IS THE STRANGEST ADMINISTRATION.
EVERY TIME A NAME COMES UP-- CARTER PAGE, THE CATO KALIN OF
THE CASE-- HE DOESN'T COANYTHING, HE'S JUST THERE.
AND MANAFORT, WHO HAS ALL THE RUSSIAN CONNECTIONS, AND ROGER
STONE WITH ALL THE RUSSIAN CONNECTIONS.
AND MICHAEL STONE IS OVER THERE HAVING DINNER WITH VLADIMIR.
WHAT IS THE VUGZ ERUSSIAN CONNECTION?
WHY IS IT ALWAYS-- IT'S LIKE YEAHY MASON TALKING ABOUT THE
O.J. CASE-- WHAT IS THIS, WALKING THROUGH THE BLOOD, IN
THE BLOOD, AROUND THE BLOCK BLOOD?
WHY ARE THERE ALWAYS RUSSIANED INVOLVED?
I DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE AFFINITY THIS GUY SEEMS TO HAVE.
IT MAY GO IN HISTORY AS THE RUSSIANS HAD NOTHING LEFT AT THE
END OF THE COLD WAR.
ALL THEY HAD LEFT WAS A SECURITY STHE K.G.B.-- WHICH THEY
RENAMED-- AND A LOT OF GAS, A LOT OF OIL AND GAS THEY WANTED
TO SULS.
SO THEY HIRED A LOT OF LOBBYISTS, LIKE MANAFORT, A LOT
OF MONEY POURS IN THE DOOR, TRYING TO INFLUENCE OUR
ELECTIONS SO WE END THE SANCTIONS, START BUYING FOSUL
FUELS, STOP TALKING ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE AND THEY'LL BE
BACK IN BUSINESS AS GAS STATIONS.
>> Stephen: YOU HAVE A NEW BOOK "BOBBY KENNEDY: A RAGING
SPIRIT."
AND BEFORE WE GO INTO IT, CAN YOU EXPLAIN THIS STRIKING IMAGE
ON THE BACK?
>> YEAH.
I WANT EVERYBODY TO SEE THIS.
THIS IS WHY I WROTE THE BOOK.
YOU KNOW, LOOK AT THIS POOR FAMILY ALONG THE RAILROAD TRACKS
IN 1968 PAYING TRIBUTE TO BOAB KENNEDY AS HIS BODY GOES BY.
>> Stephen: ON A TRAIN.
>> THAT KIND OF-- AFTER HE HAD BEEN ASSASSINATED.
THAT KIND OF PATRIOTIC COMMITMENT AND TRUST IN
POLITICAL LEADERS IS GONE.
LOOK ON THE OTHER SIDE.
THESE YOUNG AFRICAN AMERICAN KIDS.
YOU KNOW, INSIDE THE BOOK I SHOWED LINES OF AFRICAN
AMERICANS, THEY WERE SINGING "BATTLE HYMN OF THE REPUBLIC"
SPONTANEOUSLY WHEN BOAB'S BODY WENT BY, SPONTANEOUSLY THEY JUST
STARTED SINGING.
THESE WHITE PEOPLE WHO HAVE LOST THEIR FAITH IN THE DEMOCRATIC
PARTY NOW.
THEY THINK THEY'VE BEEN ABANDONED, DISCARDED, TRUMP
PEOPLE, REAGAN-- OR WHATEVER.
THEY HAD THIS PATRIOTIC CONNECTION TO THIS KENNEDY GUY.
YOU KNOW WHY?
BECAUSE HE BELIEVED IN UNITING PEOPLE.
UNLIKE TODAY WITH TRUMP WHO DOES EVERYTHING IN THE WORLD TO
DISTRACT WITH US STUPID STUFF OVER STAT USE OR BATHROOMS, HE'S
ALWAYS COME UP WITH SOMETHING TO GET TO US HATE EACH OTHER.
OR SAYING THAT HIS PREDECESSOR SNUCK IN THE COUNTRY FROM
AFRICA.
HE NEVER STOPS AT A CHANCE TO DEVICE GUIDEUS.
THAT'S WHAT TRUMP WANTS TO DO.
AND BOBBY TO HIS CREDIT.
>> -- HE HAD FLAWS-- BUT ALL HE TRIED TO DO WAS BRING US
TOGETHER.
HE WAS A UNITER, HAD EMPATHY FOR PEOPLE-- TRUMP HAS NO EMPATHY.
HOW YOU CAN TALK TO A WAR WIDOW AND NOT EXPRESS EMPATHY.
BODY WENT THE NIGHT KING WAS KILLED-- AND I HAVE THE TAPE TO
PROVE IT-- HE SAID TO A GUY IN A FLAT TRUMP AND SAID, "DO THE
PEOPLE KNOW KING HAS BEEN KILLED TODAY?"
AND THEY SAID, "NO, THEY DON'T KNOW."
HE HAD TO WALK OUT IN A TOUGH CROWD IN A ROUGH NEIGHBORHOOD,
THE COPS WOULDN'T GO WITH HIM, AND BOBBY TOLD THEM WHAT
HAPPENED AND SAID WE HAVE TO LEARN TO LIVE TOGETHER AND MY
BROTHER WAS KILLED BY A WHITE GUY.
AND I DON'T THINK WE HAVE THAT TODAY.
WE DON'T HAVE-- WE DON'T HAVE EMPATHY.
WE DON'T HAVE UNITY.
WE DON'T HAVE COMPASSION.
WE DON'T HAVE LEADERS THAT WE TRUST LIKE THIS GUY.
>> Stephen: THE EPIGRAPH OF THIS BOOK IS A QUOTE FROM
CHURCHILL THAT SAYS, "MAN IS SPIRIT."
>> YEAH.
>> Stephen: WHAT WAS BOBBY'S SPIRIT?
>> YOU KNOW, I THINK IT WAS, AS A KID, HE WAS THE RUNT IN THE
FAMILY.
AND I WORKED VERY HARD TO FIGURE OUT, WHY WAS THIS RICH SID KIDSO
CARING ABOUT PEOPLE IN TROUBLE-- MINORITIES, ALL KIND OF PEOPLE--
AMERICAN INDIANS.
HE CARED ABOUT THE WHITE APPALACHIAN PEOPLE, THE POOR
WHITES IN THE COUNTRY.
HE WAS THE SMALL KID IN THE FAMILY.
I THINK A LOT OF LIFE IS BIRTH ORDER AND WHERE YOU FIT IN THE
FAMILY.
HE WAS 5'8", HIS BROTHERS WERE SIX FEET TALL, AND HE CALLED THE
KID TO HIS FACE, "YOU'RE A RUNT." AND WHEN KID SHOWED
INTEREST IN OTHER PEOPLE AND GENEROSITY, HE'D SAY, "I DON'T
KNOW WHERE HE GOT THAT FROM."
FINALLY BOBBY BECAME THE TOUGH GUY.
AND EVENTUALLY THE REAL SPIRIT OF THE GUY CAME OUT.
HE LOOKED AFTER WHITE PEOPLE.
>> Stephen: IT CAN COME OUT AFTER J.F.K. WAS KILLED?
>> A FRIEND OF THE FAMILY TOLD ME, ON BACKGROUND, HE DECIDE HE
WOULD SPEND HIS LIFE GOING AFTER BAD GUYS, LIKE MOBSTERS -- JIMMY
HOFFA, REALLY SCARY CHARACTERS HE'D SPEND HIS LIFE GOING AFTER
THEM AS A PROSECUTOR.
AND HE DECIDE PEOPLE LIKE THAT END UP BEING THEIR OWN--
CREATING THEIR OWN HELL ON EARTH.
THEY CREATE THEIR OWN HELL, THE BAD GUYS OF THIS PLANET.
SO WHY DON'T YOU FOCUS ON THE VICTIMS?
AND HE CHANGED HIS LIFE THAT WAY.
>> Stephen: THERE WAS A TERRORIST ATTACK IN DOWNTOWN
MANHATTAN TONIGHT, THIS AFTERNOON.
>> YEAH.
>> Stephen: WHAT DO YOU THINK BOBOBBYKENNEDY'S RESPONSE WOULD
BEEN TO WHAT WE'RE FACING NOW?
>> I THINK, LIKE MOST OF US WHO TRY TO UNDERSTAND TERRORISM,
IT'S A DESPERATE ACT BY OUR ENEMY TO GET TO US HATE THEM
MORE.
THEY WANT TO STIR UP MORE HATRED ON BOTH SIDES.
THE IDEA OF TERRORISM IS TO MAKE THE STATE THAT THEY ATTACK MORE
OF A POLICE STATE, MORE CONTROLLING, LESS FREE, MORE
BUILDINGS LOCKED UP, MORE PASSES TO GET THROUGH DOORS, CLOSE UP
THE-- TODAY YOU CAN'T EVEN GO TO THE CAPITOL.
YOU USED TO BE ABLE TO GO TO THE U.S. CAPITOL, JUST WALK IN THE
DOOR.
TO TRY TO CLOSE UP SOCIETY SO PEOPLE BEGIN TO FEEL LIKE LESS
THAN DEMOCRATIC PEOPLE.
AND I THINK THE TERRORISTS WIN THAT WAY.
SO WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO IS RECOGNIZE IT'S A TERRORIST ACT.
IT'S AN ACT OF HATRED.
BUT ITS REAL PURPOSE IS TO TURN THE SOCIETY THEY ATTACK INTO A
POLICE STATE.
>> Stephen: WELL, THANK YOU FOR THIS BOOK.
( APPLAUSE ) I KEEP THIS ON MY DESK.
THANK YOU FOR THIS BOOK ABOUT BOAB KENNEDY.
HE, TO ME, IS THE HEARTBREAK .
KENNEDY, THIS PICTURE, ONE OF THE EARLIEST MEMORIES WILL OF MY
LIFE.
WAS WATCHING THAT TRAIN.
AND... I REMEMBER MY SISTER PUTTING HER ARMS AROUND ME AND
POINTING ME TO THE TV AND EXPLAINING WHAT WAS HAPPENING.
WHO THIS MAN WAS.
AND I KEEP THIS ON MY DESK.
WOULD YOU READ TO THE PEOPLE WHAT BOAB KENNEDY SAID.
>> IT'S FROM THE SOUTH AFRICA SPEECH.
EACH TIME A MAN STANDS UP FOR AN IDEA OR ACTS TO IMPROVE THE LOT
OF OTHERS OR STRIKES OUT AGAINST INJUSTICE HE SENDS FORTH A TINY
RIPPLE OF HOPE AND CROSSING EACH FRRG A MILLION DIFFERENT CENTERS
OF ENERGY AND DARING THOSE RIPPLES BUILD A CURRENT THAT CAN
WIPE-- CAN SWEEP DOWN THE MIGHTIEST WALLS OF OPPRESSION
AND RESISTANCE.
ROBERT KENNEDY.
( APPLAUSE ) >> Stephen: "BOBBY KENNEDY: A
RAGING SPIRIT" IS ON SALE NOW.