♪ ♪ ♪ >> Stephen: HEY, EVERYBODY.
WE'RE BACK WITH THE CO-HOSTS OF SHOWTIME'S "THE CIRCUS," ALEX
WAGNER, JOHN HEILEMANN, AND MARK McKINNON.
ALEX, LET'S TALK ABOUT SOME OF THE PEOPLE WHO WENT UP TO
CAPITOL HILL.
I KNOW THAT IN OCTOBER, YOU TALKED TO A MILITIA GROUP--
WHATEVER THAT NECESSARILY MEANS.
SELF-STYLE MILITIA GROUP.
THAT ARE CALLED THE III%.
AND I UNDERSTAND SOME OF THEM WENT TO THE RIOT THAT DAY.
WHAT DID YOU TALK AWAY FROM THAT CONVERSATION?
WHAT IS MOTIVATING THESE PEOPLE?
>> A SENSE OF GRAVE INJUSTICE.
THEY WERE SAYING IN OCTOBER IF JOE BIDEN WINS THE ELECTION IT'S
FRAUDULENT.
IF DONALD TRUMP DOES, IT'S NOT.
THAT DEIFIES LOGIC BUT THAT WAS WEEKS BEFORE THE ELECTION.
THEY SAID THEY WERE READY FOR THE NEXT CIVIL WAR.
THERE WAS A VERY UNIFIED SENSE OF PERSON.
THERE WAS URGENCY.
THERE WAS ANGER, AND THERE WAS A SENSE OF, I WOULD SAY, MISPLACED
PATRIOTISM IN ALL OF THIS.
THOSE ARE REALLY INTOXICATING THINGS, RIGHT?
LIKE THIS GROUP OF SELF-STYLED GUYS HAD BANDED TOGETHER.
THEY HAD ASSIGNED EACH OTHER QUASI-MILITARY DESIGNATIONS.
ONE OF THEM WAS A SERGEANT.
ONE OF THEM WAS A GENERAL.
AND THERE WAS A REAL SENSEs OF BELONGING.
AND THAT'S ACTUALLY CENTRAL TO TRUMPISM, RIGHT.
PART OF THE REASON HE HAS BEEN SO-- IT'S BEEN IMPOSSIBLE TO
BREAK THE FEVER OF HIS RHETORIC AND HIS-- WELL, HIS
ADMINISTRATION IS BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE TIED TO HIM IN A VERY DEEPLY
EMOTIONAL, PERSONAL WAY.
AND THAT WAS THE FEELING THEY GOT FROM THE MILITIA.
THEY WERE EXPLICIT ABOUT, YOU KNOW, ARMS, WEAPONRY.
THEY WERE DOING BASIC TRAINING ON THEIR OWN.
THEY WERE PREPARING FOR INSURRECTION.
AND VIOLENCE HAS BEEN SO LONG PART OF THE DONALD TRUMP D.N.A.,
IT WAS REALLY A VIOLENT RHETORIC, I SHOULD SAY, THAT IT
WAS HARD TO DISTINGUISH, AS THE F.B.I. LATER SAID THIS WEEK,
IT'S HARD TO DISTINGUISH, LIKE, THE BRAVADO OF LANGUAGE FROM THE
INTENTION TO ACT.
AND IN THE AFTERMATH OF THAT INTERVIEW, I SORT OF THOUGHT, MY
GOD, LIKE, YOU KNOW, MAYBE WE SHOULD REPORT THIS TO THE F.B.I.
BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, ONCE YOU THINK, OKAY, THEY'RE JUST SAYING
THESE THINGS.
AND AS WE SEE, IT IS PAINFULLY OBVIOUS, THAT THEY HAD EVERY
INTENTION OF CARRYING OUT A BLOODY MISSION TO OVERTHROW
DEMOCRACY.
DISPLOO NOW, THERE ARE A LOT OF COMPARISONS-- A LOT OF PEOPLE
TALK ABOUT THE CIVIL WAR WHEN THEY TALK ABOUT THIS PARTICULAR
INSURRECTIONIST UPRISING, AND SORT OF A SHADOWY MOVEMENT
ACROSS THE UNITED STATES TO BE IN RESISTANCE OF THE NEW
GOVERNMENT.
I FIND THAT COMPARISON A LITTLE FACILE BECAUSE HOWEVER EVIL THE
SOUTH'S INTENTIONS WERE-- WHICH WAS TO MAINTAIN AN ECONOMIC
SYSTEM BASED UPON ENSLAVING OTHER PEOPLE-- THEY HAD A
SYSTEM, AND THEY HAD AN INTENTION.
THIS WOULD BE AS IF ABRAHAM LINCOLN, YOU KNOW, HAD
THREATENED TO TAKE AWAY THE SOUTH'S UNICORNS.
IT IS BASED UPON A FANTASY AS OPPOSED TO A WARRING IDEA OVER
WHAT SHOULD BE THE ECONOMIC ENGINE FOR HALF OF THE COUNTRY.
>> YEAH, WELL, LISTEN, THE SOUTH WAS ALSO STILL TIED TO THE WORLD
OF FACTS AND REALITY.
THEY MAY HAVE HAD A CORRUPT AGENDA, BUT AT THE END OF THE
DAY, THERE WERE AGREED UPON REALITIES.
THAT IS NOT THE CASE IN THIS.
THE MILITIA GROUPS-- YOU KNOW, FOX NEWS MIEFN THEIR GATEWAY
DRUG, BUT THEY ARE EXISTING IN A WORLD OF PARANOID CONSPIRACY.
AND, BY THE WAY, IT HAS AFFECTED AND INFECTED MOST REPUBLICAN
VOTERS AT THIS POINT.
I MEAN, THERE IS REALLY AN ALTREALITY THAT THEY LIVE IN.
>> ALEX MAKES A GREAT POINT, STEPHEN, PARTICULARLY THE
PATRIOTIC THREAD OF THE MADNESS.
THINK ABOUT THE INVERSE CRAZINESS OF THIS.
THESE PEOPLE ARE BEING ENCOURAGED BY A PRESIDENT TO
PRESERVE DEMOCRACY BY OVERTHROWING IT.
THEY ARE ACTUALLY PRESERVING DEMOCRACY BY OVERTURNING A
LAWFUL ELECTION AND SOMEHOW-- BELIEVE ME, THAT'S THE CODE THEY
GOT AT THAT RALLY.
THEY JUST SAID, "LISTEN, IF YOU WANT YOUR COUNTRY BACK, GO TO
THE CAPITOL."
AND WHAT DO YOU THINK THEY THOUGHT HE MEANT WHEN HE SAID,
DON'T SHOW WEAKNESS."
THAT'S LIKE A MOB BOSS SAYING I DIDN'T SAY PULL THE TRIGGER.
I WAS READY TO GET A PITCH FORK.
>> Stephen: YOU HAVE TO FIGHT LIKE YOU NEVER FOUGHT BEFORE.
>> I WILL SAY THIS STEPHEN-- I FIND THINKING ABOUT IT THIS WAY
EVEN MORE DISCONCERTING.
IN 1995, IN APRIL OF 1995, I WOKE UP ON AN APRIL MORNING AND
HEARD THAT THE MURRAH BUILDING IN OKLAHOMA CITY HAD BEEN BLOWN
UP AND GOT ON A PLANE AND COVERED THAT.
AND TIMOTHY McVAY, AND THE FIRST TIME I HEARD THE TERM
MICHIGAN MILITIA WAS 25 YEARS AGO.
YOU DRAW A DIRECT LINE BETWEEN THAT.
THIS HAS BEEN OUT THERE IN THE DARK CORNERS OF AMERICAN
POLITICAL CULTURE FOR LAST 25 YEARS, LEAST, AND FURTHER BACK.
BUT, YOU KNOW, DONALD TRUMP IS NOTHING BUT A MORE POTENT
VERSION OF PAT BUCHANAN.
AND THE FACT THAT IT'S NOW COME OUT, I RAISE IT ALL TO SAY THIS:
I THINK, YOU KNOW, DONALD TRUMP'S GOING TO BE GONE NEXT
WEDNESDAY, AND WE'RE EITHER GOING TO CONVICT HIM IT'S SENATE
IS EITHER GOING TO CONVICT HIM OR NOT AND HE WILL BE ABLE TO
RUN FOR OFFICE AGAIN OR NOT.
BUT NONE OF THOSE THINGS ARE GOING TO CHANGE THE REALITY THAT
THIS KIND OF HATRED AND THE ANTIGOVERNMENT SENTIMENTS THAT,
INCOHERENT THOUGH THEY ARE, THAT HAVE ANIMATED THESE PEOPLE, IT'S
A GROWING PART OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, AS ALEX SAID.
AND DONALD TRUMP IS THE ULTIMATE ACCELERANT FOR IT.
IN THE ABSENCE OF DONALD TRUMP IT WILL STILL BE THERE AND IT'S
WHY I WORRY WE'RE ON THE PRECIPICE OF A PERIOD OF TIME IN
THE COUNTRY IN WHICH IF NOT CIVIL WAR, POLITICAL VIOLENCE IS
GOING BECOME AN INCREASINGLY REGULAR AND ROUTINE THING IN OUR
LIVES.
>> Stephen: "THE CIRCUS" AIRS SUNDAYS ON SHOWTIME.
ALEX WAGNER, AND WE'LL BE RIGHT BACK WITH A
PERFORMANCE BY THE WAR ON DRUGS.