WINFREY: I want you to meet the two men from
the `Kissing Case'--James "Hanover" Thompson
and David "Buzzy" Simpson, who joins us via
satellite from North Carolina.
At the time that this happened you were--
how old were you?
Mr. JAMES THOMPSON : I was nine years old.
WINFREY: Nine years old. And what happened?
Because I know there's a black version
of the story and a white version of the story.
Mr. THOMPSON: Yes. Yes. Well, David and myself,
who were playing with some little white friends
of ours...
WINFREY: And how did that happen--
that in 1958 you were playing with white friends?
Mr. THOMPSON: Yes.
Well, my grandmother worked for these little girls' mother--
her parents--so we knew these little kids.
WINFREY: Mm-hmm. Were you in their yard?
Mr. THOMPSON: Yes, we were in a yard adjacent
to their house in between where
there was a big pipe that--where water went
down through this little stream.
And so we were there playing, and,
you know, they were killing spiders inside
of the pipe.
We were running through the pipe throwing
rocks through the little stream
of water, you know, as kids do.
And, you know, I mean--and what happened--
you know, it was about three or four
little white boys, there was David and myself.
And later on, three
little white girls came down to the little
stream where we were playing with the pipe.
And we played until about dark.
And as darkness, you know, began to set in, you know,
some of the kids went home.
And the one little boys was left
and two little white girls and David and myself.
So the little white boys suggested that
the little girl give us a kiss before they go home.
And so the little girl gave us a little peck on the jaw.
She kissed him first, then she kissed me.
And I mean, you know, being little innocent kids,
we didn't think nothing of it; we just went home.
And David and I, we had wagons and we had dogs, you know.
We would be up and down Franklin Avenue.
We sold bottles, and we sold milk jugs,
just to make money and...
WINFREY: Those were the good old days.
(Laughter)
Mr. THOMPSON: Yeah, when you could sell them, you know?
WINFREY: Yeah.
Mr. THOMPSON: And what happened is
the police car spotted us and they came
and they ran up on us, and they had their guns drawn.
And they put us under arrest.
They put us in handcuffs, and they called us
`little --- boys, little rapists.'
They hit my head on the car
as they were shoving me in the car.
They took us down to the police station.
They made us strip off our clothes.
WINFREY: What did you think was going on?
Mr. THOMPSON: I was afraid. I was terrified.
I was afraid for my life.
WINFREY: What had you been told at that time about the races?
Mr. THOMPSON: Well, during that time I knew that
there was prejudice, because I used to always go
to this theater downtown in Monroe on Main Street.
And I knew that all the white people would sit downstairs,
and they would push us up these little steps--
little winding steps to a little balcony.
And I used to always wonder why, you know.
And I used to always look over the balcony
and see people down there having a good time,
but we always had to sit upstairs.
And so I can remember one Christmas my
sister had bought me a set of toy guns, right?
And I didn't understand prejudice and racism,
but I knew I was tired of sitting up in that balcony.
And so my way of striking out--you know, I didn't--
I didn't really understand.
I just threw my gun down at those people.
I didn't know if I hit anybody or what,
but I knew something was wrong and I was troubled, you know.
And--and that was the first that I...
WINFREY: Did you get in trouble?
Mr. THOMPSON: No, I didn't get in trouble
because I don't think I hit anybody.
But I was learning what racism was all about.
But I...
WINFREY: So nobody ever said to you--
nobody sat down and said,
`White people are this way and black people are this way?'
Mr. THOMPSON: No, they didn't.
I didn't know, you know.
WINFREY: Nobody had said to you,
`You're not supposed to play with the little white kids?'
Mr. THOMPSON: No.
Nobody had said that,
because I had a lot of white friends
that we played with.
You know, because David and I, we were....
WINFREY: Because your grandmother worked
in their homes and you would be there.
Mr. THOMPSON: Yes, and my mother worked in their homes,
and we were around the white kids all the time.
We were a close-knit community in Monroe, North Carolina.
And this was over by a white high school where a
football stadium was.
You know, we used to always go and peep through
the fence and watch the football games.
You know, we could never get in.
WINFREY: So the police, they have their guns drawn...
Mr. THOMPSON: Yes. WINFREY: ...they throw you in the car,
THOMPSON: Yes.
WINFREY: they take you downtown, and then what happened?
THOMPSON: Well, they beat us, they threw us
in these holding cells that they had in
the police station you know, and then...
WINFREY: David, did the little girl kiss you?
Mr. DAVID SIMPSON: Yes, yes. I was kissed on the jaw and...
Mr. THOMPSON: But David's shy.
Mr. SIMPSON: ...I remember.
WINFREY: Yeah.
Mr. THOMPSON: He was kind of shy.
He was basically after the spiders and,
you know, things, so...
(Laughter)
Mr. THOMPSON: You know, we used to go tadpole hunting.
You know, we used to do all kinds of little
things as kids, you know, to stay busy.
SIMPSON: Yeah.
WINFREY: Yeah.
I used to catch tadpoles.
WINFREY: Because, you know, I was born in Mississippi.
I used to catch tadpoles.
I realized they were frogs.
Mr. THOMPSON: Yeah, me too.
THOMPSON: Yeah, they're frogs.
WINFREY: Then I wasn't interested in them no more.
(Laughter)
Mr. THOMPSON: Right.
WINFREY: Yeah.
Mr. THOMPSON: You know, then--what happened then, they beat us.
They handcuffed us, they held us in the cell.
And then later on, as it began
to get darker and darker, you know,
these guys came through there with these
sheets over their heads.
And they talked about they was going to hang us
and lynch us.
And after they had beers, said--
you know, I--they was beating us with
their fists through the body, you know,
and I was all laying on the floor.
I was crying.
I was scared to death, you know.
WINFREY: So where was your mother during all of this, David?
Mr. SIMPSON: We never did see our mother.
They would not let us see our mother.
We was in jail, and they would not let us see our parents.
And we--they said it was for our
own protection at the time.
WINFREY: How long did you all stay in jail?
Mr. SIMPSON: A week--six days or more--
before going to court--some court.
I guess it was a court.
We didn't see our parents then.
WINFREY: You didn't see your parents then.
Mr. SIMPSON: No, we didn't.
WINFREY: And then did you go back to jail during the trial?
Mr. SIMPSON: Yes, before...
Mr. THOMPSON: Yes, we had to...
WINFREY: Yes. Yes, James, go ahead.
Mr. THOMPSON: What happened--after, you know, the trial,
which, you know, I said lasted for a few days,
they kept taking us before this judge, right?
And finally they sent us off to Morrison Training School,
which is in Hoffman, North Carolina,
which is right outside of Rockingham.
And they placed us there for
five months and three days, you know.
And a lot...
WINFREY: To do what?
Mr. THOMPSON: Just to be in training school,
you know, with kids that had got in trouble.
And they assigned us to Parson Hall there,
and our staff members was Mr. and Mrs. Boyd.
The superintendent at Morrison Training School
at that time was Mr. and Mrs. Hanley.
Mr. SIMPSON: Yeah.
Mr. THOMPSON: And they took us to the Hanleys.
They bought us, you know, jackets and clothes
to dress up, because people were constantly
coming to interview us--lawyers--
and there was letters written.
There was packages of candy and stuff coming from England.
WINFREY: Did you understand what had happened?
Mr. THOMPSON: No, we didn't understand what had happened,
but we had ridden in a jet,
because a jet was carrying--we were seeing ourselves on
"CBS Evening News" with Walter Cronkite.
Every newspaper--I mean, it was--it was something.
We was terrified.
You know, we had never been away from home.
We were young innocent kids.
WINFREY: So did you think you had comm--
did you know what you had done?
I mean, did you know what you were in jail for?
Mr. THOMPSON: No. No, we didn't realize we had committed a crime.
You know, we didn't realize what had happened.
WINFREY: So when they were saying that you had--
that at nine years old or eight years old--
had raped this little white girl,
when she had only kissed you, did you know what--
did you know what rape was?
Mr. THOMPSON: No.
No, I didn't even know what rape was.
You know, I couldn't even spell my name.
I didn't learn to write my name until
I was in Morrison Training School.
Mr. SIMPSON: Right.
Mr. THOMPSON: I mean, we were innocent kids, you know.
We were curious.
You know, we hung out in the streets.
We played...
WINFREY:So when did you come to understand that
this was the shame and horror of racism.
When did you know?
Mr. THOMPSON: Well, I knew when I got out of training school,
because our family's--you know our house had been shot up.
My mother had swept bullets off of the porch every day.
Our families had been forced to get out of town.
They kicked our families out of town.
When I--when we got out of training school,
after five months and three days, they had
moved us in a project called Double Oaks in Charlotte.
They had placed our families on welfare,
they had assigned us to Double Oaks Elementary School,
and they had...
WINFREY: So your mother wasn't allowed to work anymore?
Mr. THOMPSON: No, no, no.
WINFREY: Grandmother wasn't allowed to work anymore?
Mr. THOMPSON: No.
My mother did domestic work
in Monroe during that time.
And after she moved Charlotte,
she didn't know anybody,
so they placed our families on welfare.
WINFREY: I don't know if a lot of people still
realize this because, you know,
at the time, if you were a black person,
particularly in the South, the only job you could
get was menial labor or domestic work.
Mr. THOMPSON: Right.
WINFREY: And that domestic work or menial labor
really depended upon the graces of white people.
So if they didn't like you, you couldn't get a job.
Mr. THOMPSON: That's right.
WINFREY: Yeah.
So after this happened, your mom wasn't able to get a job?
Mr. THOMPSON: Right.
You know, and after we got out of
training school and I began to understand,
because they assigned me to a psychologist--
a psychiatrist--no, a psychologist in Charlotte.
I had to go see this man every week.
And he would ask me, you know, yeah...
Mr. THOMPSON: ...`Are you some kind of maniac?
We should sterilize you,' and--I mean,
they was telling me all kinds of,
you know, things that I didn't understand.
He was using all kinds of words
that I didn't understand, you know.
And they had this hooked up through the
Department of Social Services.
And I can remember Mr. Lindsey, the man from the...
WINFREY: Do you remember the--
the thousands of letters you got from kids in Europe?
Mr. THOMPSON: Yes, I remember the letters,
I remember the candy, I remember everything.
WINFREY: Didn't this--
I know you remember the candy, but did...
(Laughter)
Mr. THOMPSON: Yeah.
WINFREY: But didn't--wasn't--
President Eisenhower was president at the time?
Mr. THOMPSON: Yes. Yes.
WINFREY: Didn't Eleanor Roosevelt get involved somehow?
I had read that.
Mr. THOMPSON: Yes.
Yes, Eleanor Roosevelt got involved.
And there--you know, there was pressure put on
the governor of the state of North Carolina,
who was then Luther Hodges.
And finally he gave us a pardon.
You know, and I couldn't understand.
They came and told us one day at Morrison Training School that,
`You all got a pardon, you all got a pardon.
You all are going to get out.'
So we was so happy because we had been working
out in the field, in the pine, you know,
out in the woods, you know, cutting trees and stuff.
And we went to school half the day...
WINFREY: And how old were you by that time, 10?
Mr. THOMPSON: I was 10, yes.
WINFREY: Well, we asked the little girl who kissed you to be here,
who's not a little girl anymore.
And she declined to be here.
What do you--do you think that it was her fault?
Mr. THOMPSON: Well, we were kids.
I don't think it was her fault because kids do innocent things.
We were just innocent children.
Mr. SIMPSON: No, no, no.
WINFREY: What are you saying, David?
Mr. SIMPSON: No, it wasn't her fault, because children's
only taught only what parents feed them.
If you feed them hatred or racism,
they grow up like that.
WINFREY: Yeah.
Mr. SIMPSON: Kids are only taught what we teach them.
WINFREY: So--and since that time, you've
had some run-ins with the law,
because you're serving time now?
Mr. SIMPSON: Yes, I--I--I--when I was there,
this detective, Dewer Foster out of Monroe--he
come to Charlotte when things get broke in
or anything happen.
He tells the police there that I was a very
cruel person and breaking in, or doing certain things.
When--when crime come up,
they be looking for me for this type of situation,
seeing though he drove this into
the Charlotte Police Department's mind,
that I was the type of person that goes
around and do these--this type of stuff, regular.
WINFREY: So has this followed you
since you were 10 years old?
Mr. SIMPSON: Yes, it has followed me quite a lot,
because I could not never get out of the system.
WINFREY: You're shaking your head, James, because...
Mr. THOMPSON: Yes.
I know what he's talking about.
Because, you know--because of the kissing case,
you know, I have been incarcerated
and been in the system, you know.
And like I say, this stigma has been attached
and has followed us ever since then, you know.
WINFREY: So you're saying you weren't allowed--
or you haven't had the opportunity to, you know,
educate yourself and do well in life,
because everybody always says,
`Oh, that's the case'?
Mr. THOMPSON: Yes. In North Carolina.
I've lived in New York for 21 years.
Mr. SIMPSON: I agree. I agree.
Mr. THOMPSON: Yes.
Mr. SIMPSON: I agree, but...
WINFREY: So, yeah, why--why not get out of North Carolina then?
Mr. SIMPSON: Well...
Mr. THOMPSON: Family. This is home.