- Mary، why do some governments succeed where others fail؟
- It's a very good and a very Important question
And I think about it a lot With my fellow elders
Nelson Mandela brought this group Of elders together
And we constantly look at failed states، States in conflict
Visit، and try to analyze
I also have another reference point Which you touched on
I've been on the board and the prize comity Of the Mo Ibrahim foundation
Since it's started we're like 10 years 2016 is our 10th year
And the Ibrahim index Covers 15 years
Because we did 2 years at a time
And it covers 4 main areas
Safety and rule of law، which covers Rule of law، accountability، personal safety
And national safety
And then participation and human rights Which covers participation، rights and gender
And sustainable economic opportunity which is Public management، business environment
Infrastructure and rural sectors
And then human development which is Welfare، education and health
So it's a broad mix
And what we notice is first of all That unfortunately the countries at the bottom
Of the 54 African countries Are countries in conflict
That's very simple، it's very clear With Somalia at the bottom
Secondly، if countries don't have A good balance between those 4
They may be likely to have difficulties
And interestingly، that happened During the Arab spring
There were strong economic development To some extent
But not participation in rights
And you had the flare Up of the Arab spring
And we could have predicted it We didn t، but we could have
Afterwards when we looked To the data
We said we should've been Able to message that
- Gebril، why didn't this region Forecast the Arab spring
If you believe it felt juicy And how did governors play a part؟
- Well، first of all I would like to extend my gratitude and thanks for the invitation
I would say that because of change of paradigm That took place by the end of the 80s early 90s
We live in a completely new world
Ironically enough، societies all over the world Became more globalized
While governments and states، Most of them are a little national
And this is really ironic And funny at the same time
If you look at Europe today because of the wave of immigration، immigrants، refugees
They are taking nationalities
And don't rule out that one of the possibilities
Like this you know
On the other hand، Arab societies Are getting connected
Because the name of the game In the global world is connectivity
With the new expectations Specially the youth
They have more skills More expectations، more dreams
The governments faced those uprisings With the old tools، from the industrial age
Whether their security systems، Their education systems
Their work force Everything is related to the past
Therefore، you have 2 options
Governments that do not adapt Themselves to this globalized age
They're going to fail
Governments that are not responsive enough To those new dreams of global societies
I would say، or global individuals in those societies With those new dreams
They're going to fail
So the name of the game is Responsiveness in the past
Where more inclusiveness Is at heart of everything
And more adaptation and realignment Of the global society
- In your experience Why do governments fail؟
- In my experience I think that Every government fails sometimes
And have some success some other times
No government can pretend having only successes
To try، and try again
Of course success depends very much on The legitimacy that one government may have
If you have، as Mahmud Gebril Has mentioned it very rightly
If you have strong institutions coming from history If you have a very cohesive society
It's of course a very strong help
Because you can support your work On very very strong tools
But the legitimacy is the key Because if you are able to put forward a strong vision
A long term vision، with strong institutions And if you have، you are able to mobilize
Public consent
Then of course reforms adaptations Are a lot easier
Even a refugee crisis can be solved
But the big problem is you are very often Not able to fulfill the demand of the people
On a short term basis Which is what they ask
Look at what happened in Germany for example
Angela Merkel has been having A very human reaction to the refugee crisis
But of course، problems are there And problems are not easy to solve
And the numbers are so high One million people coming just in the last year
This is a huge burden for the German society Even if they have faced reunification
And have the courage to go for reunification From one that one other
One million refugees is of course A big big problem
So you cannot have answers On a short term basis
And it's difficult to explain With the media pressure
With the social networks pressure
Very difficult to find answers just in One day، one week، one month
So it takes time، it takes more legitimacy And also it takes new tools
Because new technologies، new challenges You need to adapt constantly yourself
So there's not just one answer At the time
You cannot just say I have a success today
And I will be successful tomorrow
No you need constantly to change And work harder
- Been more than 14 minutes then to sort it out Is that what you're telling us right؟
Okay، only got 14 minutes We've got less than 30 now
Miss Younes، your thought
- Yeah I'd like to go، move forward Rather than go backwards
I think there's a pending danger Which was shake the all the governments
Not just few governments
This is the concentration of wealth The way their wealth world is moving
The information given to us today 62 people in the world، own more wealth
Than the bottom half of the population
6 years back، the number was 388 people Owning more than half the wealth of the population
So this number is decreasing And wealth is accumulating
And we are in the way where one person Will own more than half the wealth of the world
This is the direction we're going
Even presidential candidate in the USA Barney Sanders، repeatedly saying
One tenth of 1% of the US population Own 80% of the wealth of the United States
So if you go by country by country This will be a threat
Because all we talk about human rights Democracy، freedom of the speech
Everything will be threatened If we cannot stop this
This is a global consensus is needed That we cannot allow this concentration to continue
1% of the population of the world Owning 99% of the wealth of the world، today
Tomorrow، it will be worse
So that's the danger that we have to see If we have to protect our government
If we have to protect our civilization We cannot allow this to continue
- Whatever the existential pressures Or challenges are Mary
Muhammad Yunus here pointed out that Inequality is something that the government
Can do something about
What about exclusion، a lack of Social justice، a lack of trust
Consensus and a collective aim for a country How do we rate these things on where to look
At how you achieve a successful government؟
- Well first of all I do agree with Yunus about the gross inequality
which is worsening and I think it's really undermining
legitimacy and credibility of the governments and I think
we have to be conscious of that and it has to be addressed
- who's going to address that؟ - well، I think it has to be
addressed country by country but also at a level of you know
The need to understand that cooperate power
when it becomes power to determine who will win elections
and it's close to that now just abiding of elections
intense money being put in to support candidates
despite all the problems in the united states
at least there's some evidence of a vibrant response by citizens
and I think that's to be welcomed but back to your point
about the inconclusiveness I think we have to remember
that basically business was about a social compact
business got the right to incorporate on the bases of you know
contributing to human welfare basically and I think we need to remember that
we need to have gender equality and I m very pleased to see
constant progress in this region particularly in the U.A.E on that
because that's part of inclusion also you know LBT rights
the gay and lesbian rights I think these are an important
Part of generating real social stability and social contract
I m reminded a little bit We were talking about it earlier
the way in which we got agreement on climate in Paris
was because the process was more inclusive
the smallest countries felt they were being listened to
the smaller states the least developed countries
and the target set of well below 2 degrees of warming
and striving for 1.5 was a better target that we ve
had up till now and will save countries
from going underwater will keep African countries
from being so buffeted by draught and flooding
- that it undermines government - at the beginning of this
there were a number of things that government's can't control
but perhaps I should sort of row back on that
to a certain extent because climate change
is something governments can control، and I want to ask
around the palace just how important you think that is
to a successful government in the years ahead
wars actually governments one single government
may not be able to do anything about a war
somewhere else but together they can
let's just start with because I think climate change
is very much in the news Dominique De Villepin
you're sense of how important that will be as an issue for
governments to be successful going forth in the way
- they deal with it - I believe that there's a growing
awareness of how important it is because we see everywhere
in the plant the consequences unfortunately for very poor countries
countries like Bangladesh، Maldives they are facing huge challenges
but in every country the U.S، in Europe، we see
every day the consequences of climate change
so I believe there's a growing awareness، cop 21 in Paris
was an important momentum of this awareness
but there's so much to be done and the problem is how
are we going to be organized in a way to have foot full agreements
and to keep the promises that are being made today
for that we need objectives very clear objectives
each country has to contribute everyone has to be part
of the adventure، rich country less rich country، and poor countries
because that's really something that's going
to help understand that we have only one planet
and we can't change this planet so this is a link between countries
it is also a link between generations and I believe that
young people today are very much aware
- of the consequences of climate change - Provide us some solutions
Well I would go at two levels strategically at the national level
for any government it should start by positioning
it's economy within the context of the global economy
to discover the competitive edge for that economy
the moment it discovers that competitive edge
it has an identity for that economy the moment that has been done
all the other sub systems should be reconstructed
re-engineering، for instance education، we have moved
drastically from axis to knowledge to the management of knowledge
and today there isn't a single university not only in the region، world wide
that teaches management of knowledge for any government today
five skills are very much needed management of complexity
management of creativity and innovation management of uncertainty
management of flow of information and management of diversity
- so it's raise your hands - if humans beings yes it is
- I have to go - because I feel the human being
Is the most resource besides what you're talking about
we mentioned we focused on the young people
particularly، this new generation of young people،
has a lot more potential than we ever had before
because of the access to technology a five year old today
is more technologically oriented than a 50 year old
and this will get more and more like that، so there will be mismatch
between the government and the young generation
one of the most important solutions is connecting hearts and minds
this is the theme of Dubai expo 2020 this is one of the most difficult goals
for any government when I was prime minister
I wanted to push innovation in france because I knew we have a lot
of capabilities، a lot of good companies
a lot of good universities but they weren't connected together
so I invented a concept which were centers of competiveness
all over France، every region every small region was having a center
in which companies were connected with universities
with experts and everybody working together، young students
innovative ideas، so all the country was participating
to one، one big goal and I think at the end of the day
what makes a young person stay in his country،
or comeback to his country، is being proud of being a citizen
of this country، being aware of the importance
of participating that's why I believe leadership
is so important leadership is just trying to find
two، three، four، five objectives which are going to be shared by
a whole population and which is going to make them
- pride to be part of - we'll be remiss if we didn't talk about
what is going on in this region particularly the problems of Syria
the problems of Libya، Iraq problems of Yemen
the scourge that is ISIS so، it's a tough region at present
what do governments need to do here to ensure success in the face
- of such challenges - first of all I would argue
that what took place in the five cases you just mentioned
was a result of the Arab International Order which came out of World War II
I would say most of Arab states have failed miserably in both fields
development and national integration you know most Arab societies
are mosaic societies composed، demographically speaking،
either in terms of ethnic groups in terms of sects، in terms of tribes
so most of those regimes which have witnessed the Arab spring
discovered that maybe tribes and sects and ethnicity can be used as security tools
for the regime by playing tribes against each other
so when the state fell down during those uprising
now the sub nations came out tribe became the name of the game
sect became the name of the game in societies like Libya
we have arms all over the place this is a recipe for civil war، you know
the other filed where the other Arab state or most of them have failed
the issue of development especially education
we didn't teach our kids the right knowledge
today the name of the game is speed knowledge is changing so fast
so we need new schools new universities that can cope
with this speed change those who prevail
are those who are going to be very fast، not those who are very strong
one of the big problems that I see is a massive one
it runs over everything whether you talk about the Middle East
or the region، this region other region
we built the whole economy of the world in one structure
which is selfishness driven so selfishness runs through
everything that we do human being have been
interpreted in such a distorted way
that human beings converted into a selfish being
but real human beings are not selfish that's the exciting thing about us
is we can move from the selfishness driven economy to human
valued driven economy the selfishness and selflessness
all these problems will be come into a very different perspective
briefly do you institutionalize do you institute
I mean do you make part of a government remit
- and a social business؟ - that's right، that's what I m coming to
So that's the kind of thing The human beings can run
both kinds of businesses profit driven maximizing
profit maximizing business also social business
business exclusively to solve human problems
without having any intention of making penny out of it
- is it realistic؟ - as a profit
It's possible، if you have it inside It will be expressed
But the text book doesn t allow you to do that
I said why don't accommodate that thing into the text book
let people decide capitalist system is all about
giving option to people but when it comes to business
they don't give you option you have to make money
so we are all making money and so interesting that we
became greedy، we became accumulation of all the wealth
because we want to excel in everything that's the kind of outburst of a thing
that we have distorted in us why don't you open it up
give people choice so as an individual
particularly young people love this idea
that yes I can be an instrument my life can be of some help
in changing the world give them a chance
just changing only thing you have to do
is to accommodate this concept into the business world
social business is part of the social world، that's all
food for thought، and the last word from
- your guests today Mohamad Younes - thank you
Mohmood gobriel، Dominique De Villepin
And Mary Robertson I hope you enjoyed this
As much as I have And thank you very much indeed