Interviewer: I thought we could pick up on the conversation that started during the retreat,
with this idea that: wanting is wanting, it's not getting. And, your related teaching from
the Zen tradition that ashes are ashes and firewood is firewood. And that each experience
is unique. I wonder if you could say a little bit more about what you mean by wanting is
wanting and it's not something after it. What's the significance of that, in your mind, when
people are suffering?
Jon Bernie: Well, yeah, suffering is really, I think the basic nature of suffering is that
we don't want it to be the way it is. We want something to change. Whatever that is. We
want to get something, we want to get rid of something, we want to fix something, we
want to understand something. So, there is this movement of -- that we want to get from
point A to point B. Point B being the end of suffering. So, there's this ... so when
we're wanting, let's say, to get to point B, we're focused on point B. And what we often
avoid is the primary resistance called wanting or not-wanting. So we're actually in a movement
-- we're in this pull or push, we're in a force of movement, but what we miss is the
primary resistance of wanting. And that's where the doorway opens. So, in Zen they say
firewood is firewood and ashes are ashes. Firewood does not become ashes. We always
think we're going to become liberated. We're going to become a free of suffering. And awakening
is the realization that our true nature is already free. So, of course we don't want
to have pain, we don't want to ... I mean, there's a distinction, obviously, between
pain and suffering. But, human experience has pain, obviously. But suffering is struggling
with it. You know, telling ourselves it should be different, or why is it this way. It's
a kind of ... I think that what is maybe often misunderstood sometimes is this apparent conflict
between the sort of "no-effort" understanding and ... "Well, if there is no one, if there
is no identity, if we're just this openness, then who makes effort?" Or, "How does one
make effort if one isn't identified with being somebody?" The mind tries to figure out lots
of things that it really can't. And that's one of them. [laughter]
It's very much a discovery process. So, we can talk about the flavor of chocolate. You
could maybe give great description -- a poetic description of it, but if somebody hasn't
tasted it ... They're not going to understand chocolate until they've tasted it. And so
the taste of the truth, a glimpse of the truth is the beginning of the path.
Interviewer: So, awakening for you is like a reference point.
Jon Bernie: It's a glimpse, a recognition ... it's that primary stopping .. that moment, or,
maybe the ultimate moment of discovery, revelation or of realization of what we fundamentally
are. The mind can't grasp it. But the heart totally understands it. It's the heart of
vastness that right now, is present. It's already understanding. It's not an intellectual
understanding. So, from the place of peace, or, that place of Oneness, if you will, then
we talk about it, or we describe it, or we point towards it, or whatever. Or nothing,
we just enjoy life. You know? As openness. So, the wanting is ok. See? We try to get
rid of wanting. There's a lot of teaching that says, "Oh, well, Buddha said that desire,
grasping is the source of suffering." Well, yeah. That's right. But, then people say,
"Well, I have to stop wanting. I have to get rid of my car and my apartment and my stuff
and I'm just going to get a loin cloth and a bowl and sit out in the corner. " But, as
Krishnamurti pointed out, you can be as attached to the robe and the bowl. You could be more
attached to the robe and the bowl and the identity of being a seeker, or a sadhu, or
something, than somebody who has a Rolls Royce and a home in Pacific Heights. Ok? Unlikely,
but possible. [laughs]
Interviewer: So, there's a lot of control that can hide out in kind of trying to manipulate
your experience for it to be a certain way -- when you use practices like that.
Jon: We perpetuate and identity. Even the identity of a seeker or someone who's spiritual
or wanting to be free. And so, we often ... there's a lot of, often, negative beliefs about wanting.
But wanting isn't the problem. That's not really... it doesn't matter whether there
is wanting or not wanting, aversion or desire. It doesn't matter. What matters is being able
to see it. Being able to fully be open to it. To be the awareness that perceives it.
Once that happens, one is not caught in the identity anymore. And that's where the shift
can take place -- into the truth of what we are. And a lot of people call it -- there's
different names for it. I call it awakening. Some people refer to awakening as some -- as
the end of suffering. I refer to awakening as the beginning of true understanding of
what we fundamentally are. Ok? And then there's stages of dropping ...
Interviewer: So, awakening, for you would be the beginning of the awakening being embodied.
Jon: Yeah. Because otherwise there is this idea that there is going to be an end called
enlightenment. And I think what happens is that all those concepts of enlightenment and
realization -- all those things fall away. All the constructs that the mind has created
and has believed in -- all fall away. And what is really perceived is this mystery that
keeps unfolding and we keep discovering. This reality.
Interviewer: Do you feel like enlightenment is even that useful of a concept for you at
all?
Jon: I don't think about it anymore. I mean, it was useful as a 16-year-old when I had
my ... as a 20-year-old it was very important for me. Because that's, you know .... So,
I think that if we -- we can have these concepts but ... and they can be useful until they are not needed
anymore. The problem is believing and getting identified with them.
Interviewer: It's hard in traditions when people -- when the concept itself is given
a place of truth and people don't feel like they can give it up, or something like that.
Jon: Then, that's ok. But can they recognize it? How many people can recognize the beliefs
that they are holding on to? I mean, it's ... it can be very threatening to question
one's beliefs. The identity is very threatened by that. But, in awareness, as awareness,
awakened consciousness, there is no threat. Because there is no belief being held on
to.