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>> I don't even want to know.
>> Hoo boy, 2020.
This going to be a year.
>> Smooth year.
[laughter]
>> Not a lot going on.
What's up?
There's not going to be another Star Wars movie, is there?
[laughter]
>> We are not talking about Star Wars.
We are talking about the ability
to save your family relationships
by somehow being able to talk politics with your loved ones,
and still remain loved.
>> Oh! >> Yes.
>> Oh, also we have Brian Govatos here!
>> Hello, yes, hello.
>> Communication expert, facilitator
of corporate communications extraordinaire.
This sounds like such an unthreadable needle.
>> And that's why it makes me so angry.
>> Well, you're an idiot!
[laughs]
>> Well, you're a fat cow!
Now see how we bonded?
We got closer together now.
>> It was pretty good.
>> That'd be great if that was the advice,
like, what you want to do--
>> GOVATOS: Straight for the jugular.
>> Is you want to ball the fists,
keep the thumbs out otherwise you're going to break that thumb.
>> Also, I have a list of sick burns
[laughs] that I can forward to anyone.
>> No.
People have given up.
That is really what makes me upset about this.
People have honestly given up on the fact that,
I'm not going to talk to Uncle Henry about this,
he'll say that, and then I'll get upset,
and I'll storm out just like we did last time.
>> If I am not mistaken,
it is a scientifically verified fact
that Thanksgiving vacations have gotten shorter,
people are getting in, having that turkey,
and getting the hell out.
Families are declaring no politics rules.
>> GOVATOS: Yes.
What is that?
>> Like having Thanksgiving with the Navy SEALS.
Get in, eat, get out.
[laughs]
>> Just imagine going to the Founding Fathers,
assuming you had a time machine first, obviously.
Going to the Founding Fathers and saying,
yeah, just so you know,
we now basically don't even talk politics
at family functions.
>> I often just assumed that,
okay, only personal experiences
can change someone's perspective
and so why even bother talking to them?
>> Because many times you're coming up against
an established framework in someone's mind
that seems impenetrable.
Maybe it is.
Maybe you're never going to change their mind
on a certain policy, let's say.
But, if you can at least demonstrate
that you're interested in seeing things
from their point of view,
you don't have to change your flight.
You don't have to leave Thanksgiving early.
>> So, okay, what is the fundamental,
if we're going to reduce everything
to rule number one, is what?
>> Rule number one is understand
what your [bleep] premise is.
>> Okay.
>> Okay?
Know what a premise is,
and then what is your premise.
>> Is that anything like volume?
>> No.
>> Because my premise is,
[laughs] louder, louder.
>> So explain to me, like,
what do you mean by premise?
Like, to me, I'm thinking of like,
sitcoms when you say that.
>> Yes, right.
So any argument rests on a premise,
any house rests on a foundation, okay?
So, my premise walking in might be,
we need to invite more UFOs to visit the capital.
Okay, great.
>> I mean first of all yes, I'm down for that.
>> My premise there is aliens at,
aliens in Washington, D.C. is a good thing.
If I go home to my family,
I need to make sure they understand
that that's where I'm coming from,
that everything I say after that,
all the craziness that we talk about
is based on the fact that I want there
to be aliens in The White House.
>> I just realized that there's a difference
between coming in, kicking in the door,
and saying to your whole family,
we need aliens in The White House,
versus walking in, knocking, opening the door,
and then saying, hey, everything I'm about to say
is coming from a place where I already believe
that aliens should be in The White House.
>> It's equally important to try to get the premise
from crazy Uncle Henry.
>> So, is this about having a plan
in case this topic comes up,
this is my plan, >> No.
>> If this topic comes up, this is my plan?
>> Good point.
This is about having a goal post
that everyone can clearly see.
I'm not, well you crazy liberals
and you crazy conservatives,
I know what you think and I know what you think about this,
you're crazy because of this, this, this,
and I bet also, what you're not saying,
that I'm probably thinking you're not saying
is that you wish that everyone did that,
you wish that taxes were through the roof and stuff,
but I'm not going to verbalize that
because that's going to be even more difficult.
Versus, your premise is clearly set
in the middle of the floor,
everyone can look at it and see it.
>> And plus you're not assigning intent
to other people. >> Correct.
>> Which I do with driving all the time,
where it's like, he cut me off on purpose.
>> What's the premise of him driving fast?
Oh, his wife's in labor and he's trying to make it in time.
That would change your opinion pretty quickly.
So his premise is, I'm having an urgent need right now
and I got to go.
You'd probably be more forgiving.
>> I guess I've been enjoying the benefit of this
for a few years,
because I'm one of those misty-eyed libertarian,
third party, don't support red or blue team or whatever,
>> GOVATOS: You have no team. >> And there is safety in that,
because I can offer observations and,
it's as though I'm saying,
I'm sorry, I'm from Mars, but this is how it looks to me,
and then just listen.
It's possible that you could pull me away
from this goal post that I've planted right here,
but the onus is on you, not on me.
>> And I can attack the goal post and not you.
This is the hill that you're going to die on,
so to speak,
we can now talk about that,
rather than how stupid and evil you are.
>> And if you're setting goal posts,
then you can eliminate straw man arguments.
>> Exactly.
In fact, here's the best thing in the world:
the steel man.
>> What is the steel man?
>> The lesson of Krypton?
[laughs]
>> The steel man is the only thing that matters.
The steel man is when you understand someone else's premise.
So you go to Uncle Henry,
who starts yelling at you at Thanksgiving,
and you say to Uncle Henry,
yo, U-H.
The story I'm telling myself is,
that you believe I hate dogs.
Is that true?
>> Oh, so you flip the whole onus--
>> They have to plant their flag now.
>> This seems similar peripherally related
to what I've heard called the ideological Turing test.
So we know that the Turing test
is if an AI bot can talk as good as a human,
you can't tell the difference, it passes the test.
An ideological Turing test is,
imagine 99 green team people
and you're the one purple team person,
you have to infiltrate this cocktail party
and make it out the other side,
and then they say, everybody has to vote,
who was the purple team person?
And if they can't figure out which one it was,
you passed it.
And there are some people who totally can pass it
and other people who cannot.
Like, for example, somebody on the far far right
would go to a party full of Democrats.
Your mission is to blend in,
you're like, great, I got it.
"So, killed any babies today?"
[fake nervous laughter]
And then, likewise,
a Democrat in a bunch of red team, would want--
>> Shot any mama apple pies lately?
>> [laughs] Yes.
>> Support the troops?
>> No, don't sacrifice your values.
Get the disagreement clear,
then, and only then, can you manufacture the steel man.
>> And the steel man is where you flip everything
and have them do it?
>> Steel man is when you represent their point
more completely than even they have done.
>> JASON: Oh, yes!
>> Steel man is when you say, okay Uncle Henry, I see.
So, let's say it's about the border wall.
Okay Uncle Henry, so,
a border wall, if I understand correctly,
will help with immigration because X, Y, and Z,
and it will do this,
and it will be economically viable
because of these reasons.
Right?
>> And you know you've won-- >> And Uncle Henry says,
exactly, exactly right.
That's when you deliver your point which is,
well, I've worked in the wall industry or whatever,
and you don't even have to be disagreeing necessarily,
but you can say,
now that you trust that I know where you're coming from,
because I just told you your argument and you agreed with me,
we have a new starting place.
You cannot accuse me of being a [bleep] anymore,
because you know that I know what you're talking about.
>> But I didn't know I was doing a steel man thing,
but you land it, and they're like yes,
that's what I think.
Then the next thing I will often say, is like,
well how do you square
>> Exactly. >> This problem?
>> I'm having trouble with that problem
as I'm working on it right now,
so how do you square that problem?
>> Now, is that the key,
not to make to statements to them
to disassemble the steel man,
but to ask questions?
>> First of all, does he do this for a living?
Because my next point is all about Socratic questioning.
>> [laughs] Well it turns out that we had a really good guest
in a previous episode who taught us
how to keep things going along conversationally.
[laughs]
>> And he was so sexy. [dramatic sound effect]
So Socrates, we all know 'em, right?
He's a great guy, great rapper.
>> "So crates", actually.
>> This whole philosophy is of course around
how deep you can get with this,
but basically, teaching by asking.
You take your Uncle Henry,
I don't know why, to me he's always sitting right there,
but, take Uncle Henry,
and you ask him that question,
but it's a question that has data in it.
It's a question that's going in a direction that you know,
you have a plan for the direction.
>> Can I try it?
>> Yes.
>> Uncle Henry, why're you such a [bleep]?
>> No, no, look you're-- [groans]
>> All right, sorry, sorry.
>> You're getting closer, you're getting closer.
That was at least phrased as a question.
[laughs]
>> Tautological.
Yeah, so,
fill your questions with data.
Don't just, it cannot work when you say,
how can you think that?
Are you crazy?
What do you mean?
That's insane.
Those have no exit path to somewhere productive.
>> So, instead, what you want to do is land a steel man,
[laughs] which is, I think all of us,
when we're dating will have to do,
then immediately call a quest and say,
how do you square that with data
that maybe they don't know--
>> GOVATOS: Information perspective.
>> And then, you're not pushing anything,
you're like, well how do you square that
with this other thing?
>> Because Socrates knew,
that when you have a concept,
instead of, [mimics fart sound]
>> Making fart noises with your mouth?
>> Instead when I can make it go, ping.
>> Turns out that Michael Winslow was Socrates.
[laughs]
>> Hey, we're all learning today.
>> Then you become a helicopter.
>> In the tradition of Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle,
the guy from Police Academy.
[mimics fart noise]
>> So, if I can make you have the idea here,
by asking those informed questions, and you go,
well you know, maybe a wall
would actually be really expensive.
That was the point you were making the whole time.
And I, by the way,
I don't care either way about the wall,
I'm just saying, if I can make you say the thing
that I was going to be arguing anyway,
holy crap, I'm staying.
I'll help you carve the turkey.
>> So, I don't know if you've read it,
but recently Peter Boghossian and James Lindsay
wrote a book called, "How to Have Impossible Conversations",
and there were two ideas
that were fairly counterintuitive to me.
One of which was, he strongly advocates,
you're never going to change anyone's mind
in any one conversation.
So you should shift your goal
to just sow the seeds of doubt.
>> Exactly.
>> Get them to consider the possibility--
>> Discoveries, yes.
>> Yes exactly.
And then the second thing is to sow those seeds of doubt,
he gives the example of,
there was some university study where people were asked,
on a scale of one to ten, how certain are you
that you could describe how a toilet works?
People are like, pshh,
eight, nine, I got this. >> Yeah, no way.
>> And then it's like,
to the best of your ability,
to the most specific detail you possibly can,
describe how a toilet works.
And so all of a sudden, people are like,
there's some like, water, and it goes down,
and then it, like, sucks down.
Like, well what causes the suction?
They're like, uh...
And then it's like, wait,
wait, how many rings are there?
>> The sarlacc.
[laughs]
>> Where does the water come from?
How many attachments are there?
And then by the time they're done, they're all like,
yeah no, I'm more a six out of ten.
And then, in the book,
Peter Boghossian makes the point, like,
that's great, that's as far
as you're going to get that conversation,
have another conversation some other time.
>> But at least now you can win the point of saying,
you know what?
My whole point was that indoor plumbing
is really complicated,
and that's why plumbers make what they make.
Whereas you were saying, earlier,
that plumbers are all overpaid.
Now, you at least understand
you don't even know how a [bleep] toilet works.
[laughs]
>> It doesn't look like we're going to be able
to fix politics in the next year,
so we're all going to have to go to Thanksgiving.
As we're driving or flying,
what're the core bullet points to keep in our mind?
>> This is, this is freaking important.
I mean, family matters, okay?
And this year is going to be tense, like you say.
These topics are going to be everywhere.
So please, just remember,
to first state your premises clearly,
so that you're not being attacked personally,
and get others to state their premise clearly,
so that you're not attacking them personally.
>> And I do think, like, premise,
I'm afraid people will take that and say,
this is true, no, this is true.
But instead, I really like that idea of like,
this is where I'm coming from--
>> That's it. >> Where are you coming from?
>> That's it.
>> Yeah, it's not a statement of fact
of saying this is how it is--
>> This is my story. >> Prove me wrong.
>> Yes, yes.
Basically, get premises out of people's bodies
and into a common space where we can all see them, first.
And then, you build that steel man argument,
by showing them now that you understand that premise,
you embody it yourself.
>> Which by the way is the hardest part,
because you have to say it so well,
that they're all like, amen, brother.
>> You know what might happen when you do that?
You might actually change your mind
and agree with them, too, which is great! [shouting]
>> Which would be amazing!
>> It's fine, okay? >> That's how we get smarter!
Yeah!
So screw you! >> So maybe you should just
screw yourself!
[laughs]
You've been Uncle Henry this whole time!
>> I am Uncle Henry.
This is the worst game of Clue ever.
[laughs]
>> All right, so you land a steel man,
and then what, it's Socrates all the way down?
>> Steel man means you're representing their point
even better than they did, and then,
Socratic questioning, which is using that empathy
that you've demonstrated now.
Imbibe and imbue your questions
with information about that premise,
to draw them out.
>> Just makes me think of the old advertising trick,
which is the person asking the questions
is the one in charge of the conversation.
And you can never be wrong when you're asking a question.
>> It's called topping from bottom.
Okay, sexually speaking, who's really in charge?
Huh, Uncle Henry? [laughs]
>> Hey, where can people hire you
to [laughs] explain your corporate messaging?
>> If you want to learn more about topping from bottom,
follow me on Twitter-- >> He has a different website.
[laughs]
>> Well, you can follow me on Twitter,
we can have a great conversations about learning,
engagement, and difficult conversations,
or Methodology Coaching if you want your employees
and staff to be able to do it.
>> So you remember I was trying to track down
whoever was compromising my credit card info?
>> Yeah, yeah, did you get 'em?
Do we need swords? I have swords.
[laughs]
>> I don't know if we got 'em or not,
because we set up a Privacy one-time,
it's like a burner card.
It's a card where you could set the maximum spend limit,
and you could keep creating 'em for different suppliers,
so that whichever supplier has sloppy practices,
I'm able to catch them in the act.
The best part is I sort of defeated myself,
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So even if somebody steals it, it won't even work at all.
But I have enjoyed very much,
watching the occasional decline come in.
Where it says, oh,
somebody tried to spend over this limit,
but you set a $500 dollar limit on this card.
And they call and they're like,
hey, why didn't this card work?
And I'm like, because I'm safe and secure and private!
Here's a new card, I just generated it.
I pressed one button, generated a brand new card,
thank you very much privacy.com/rogue,
and here is your new number.
It feels so awesome to be totally bulletproof.
>> Oh, it's so easy.
You can order things and not provide them
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You give them the Privacy number, you keep yourself safe.
I order a lot of things from ships,
floating in international waters.
People that I don't want to give my actual information to,
they get the privacy.com burner card number,
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I just give them all that they want, but nothing more.
>> And the best part is they don't sell your information
to nobody.
You could support the show and get five dollars,
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maybe it's scamstuff.com, I don't know,
by heading on over to privacy.com/rogue,
that's P-R-I-V-A-C-Y dot com,
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Is privacy hard to spell?
Doesn't seem like it's hard to spell.
>> You get five bucks, that's the takeaway here.
That's the important part.
Everybody needs five bucks.
>> You could click on the link.
>> Do it!
>> I think all of that landed.
>> Cameraman: I think we got it.
>> Yeah.
>> Cameraman: All right, now cutting.
We ended it.
[laughs]
>> That's on the end, the preferred nomenclature?
>> GOVATOS: If you want to hear more about
topping from bottom, follow me on Twitter?
[laughs]
>> JASON: No backsies on the internet, my friend.