-Our next guest is a "New York Times" best-selling author
and research professor
who has a brand-new weekly podcast on Spotify
called "Dare to Lead."
Here is Brene Brown.
Yeah, Brene. It's so nice to see you.
Thank you so much for coming back...
-Thank you. -...to the show.
I appreciate this. I want to talk about this new podcast.
It's about leadership, called "Dare to Lead."
I don't know. I just feel like it's a good message for anyone,
because one of your messages in your book that I read earlier
is that every one of us is a leader in some way.
It's not just for people in charge.
Like, everyone --
Can you expand on that?
-Yeah. I mean, I think when we think "leader,"
we think, like, pinstripes and shoulder pads
and a "C" suite office,
and the truth is, I've been in those offices
and couldn't find a leader to save my life.
And I've been around everyday people
that would never identify as a leader
and been surrounded by them.
So I define a leader
as any person who holds themselves accountable
for finding the potential in people and processes
and has the courage, the guts to develop that potential.
And that's all of us. I mean, we're just --
I recently asked Jon Meacham, I said, "What would you say
to people who don't think they're leaders?"
And he said, "Then you don't understand democracy.
We all have to lead." -Wow.
-And so I just -- I loved that.
-Yeah. -I think we're all leaders.
-You've interviewed all these people and tried to find --
and you've studied leaders, and you try to find patterns.
What are a few patterns that you always see showing up
in good leaders?
-Yeah. This was the shock for me.
In fact, this is my 23rd year as a researcher,
and this is a 10-year study.
And it was the first study I'd ever done
where the answers across all of the research participants
was the same. So, what we asked was really straightforward.
From special forces military to creatives
to all over the world, NGOs, we asked,
"What's the future of leadership?
Who's going to be leading in 5 years, 10 years,
and who's going to be gone?"
And the answer was, "We need braver leaders."
And so when we drilled into, what does that mean?
I mean, I love the word "brave." I love the word "courage,"
but they're gauzy.
Like, what does that mean? -Yeah.
-It came down to four skill sets --
the ability to rumble with vulnerability.
You know, that means when things get uncertain and hard,
we don't tap out.
We don't tap out of hard conversations.
We don't tap out of feedback, giving it or receiving it.
-Mm-hmm. -Second thing is
that we really learn how to live into our values.
I mean, the most daring leaders we've talked to
are very clear not only about what their values are,
but also what the behaviors are that support those values.
Like, there are a lot of big, fun leadership words
like "integrity."
But, like, if I walk into another organization
and see an integrity, like, poster with an eagle,
like, what does that --
You know, it's like, "Caw!"
What does that mean? -I don't know what it means.
You were on Skymall, and you were bored,
and you go it's only 10 bucks. -[ Laughs ] Skymall.
No, Skymall.
And you don't know what it means.
So these leaders have operationalized it
into behaviors that they hold themselves accountable for.
The third thing is building trust,
talking explicitly about trust,
'cause no trust, no teams, no good work.
And the last one is huge. And I learned this
from working with a lot of professional sports teams.
You've got to know how to reset
after failure, disappointment, and setbacks.
You got to learn how to get back up when you fall,
'cause that's part of being brave.
-Today is Veterans Day,
and I know you've worked with a lot of military leaders.
You do a lot of great stuff for the military.
What have you learned from military specifically?
-You know, it's really --
You know, when you're a person who teaches vulnerability,
going in to work with special forces
or, you know, Air Force fighter pilots,
you're like, "Oh, man, this is going to be a hard sell."
But what's interesting is they probably taught me more
about the importance of being in uncertainty.
I think it's like, when you got to be all blustery at work,
it's harder -- -It's not going to work.
-Yeah. When your life's on the line,
you get the importance of emotion vulnerability.
-You know, you end every episode on your podcast
asking your guests
to name five songs that they can't live without,
which I think is tough.
And you ask what that playlist says about them, and I love it.
I think it's a great, great question.
So I thought maybe I'd turn the tables if you're up for it
and ask you.
-Okay. Well, I thought about this,
and these are not songs that I just love.
These are songs that I would be sad
if I couldn't find them when I needed them.
-Wow.
-Yeah. And so they're real for me.
So, "If I Needed You," Townes Van Zandt.
"Amazing Grace," Willie Nelson.
"Before the Last Teardrop Falls," Freddy Fender.
-What? [ Laughs ]
-Yes, for sure.
-I love Freddy Fender. -Yeah.
Bonnie Raitt and John Prine singing "Angel from Montgomery."
And Carol Woods and Timothy Mitchum's cover of "Let It Be."
I have to have those songs.
-Wow. -When the going get's tough,
those songs get going.
-I really appreciate you being back on the show.
Thank you so much.
-Thank you. -Please be well.
Brene Brown. New episodes of "Dare to Lead" --
"Dare to Lead" are released every Monday on Spotify.