studios in Washington and in the
west from the Walter Cronkite
school of journalism at Arizona
state university.
Judy: The Biden administration
announced steps it is taking to
crackdown on Russia for you
baiting sanctions by cracking
down on a Russian bank, a
cryptocurrency mining company
and an oligarch named konstantin
malofeyev.
All this is another reminder of
the criminal lengths Vladimir
Putin has gone to over the years
to outlast his enemies. In a
new book, bill Browder, who
invested heavily in Russia until
he watched Putin amass a vast
fortune and eliminate,
literally, his adversaries,
describes in detail how Putin
operates.
It's titled "Freezing order: A
true story of money laundering,
murder, and surviving Vladimir
Putin's wrath."
I spoke with Browder a short
time ago.
Thanks for joining us.
The term freezing order, what
does that refer to?
>> It refers to freezing the
assets that belong to somebody
who has obtained them through
criminal means.
That's one of the tools we used
to go after people who profited
from sergei magnitsky's murder
and people in the Putin regime.
Judy: What is so gripping is it
is one close call after another.
You have moments that have to be
seared into your memory.
>> I was going to Spain to meet
with the chief anti-corruption
prosecutor because we found
money connected to sergei
magnitsky going to Spanish
properties.
He wanted me to give formal
evidence.
On the day of my meeting with
the prosecutor, walking out of
my hotel room, there are two
Spanish police officers there to
arrest me on a Russian interpol
warrant.
One branch wants me to give
evidence, another branch wants
to arrest me on behalf of the
Russians I am giving evidence
against.
It was shocking.
I tweeted out the whole incident
as it was happening.
By the time I got to the police
station, there had been 50 calls
to interpol and the Spanish
interior ministry.
If they had sent me back to
Russia, I would have been
killed.
That's how much Putin hates me.
Judy: When you first went to
Russia, this was in late 1990's,
Putin was coming into power and
you were close to him for a few
years before he started to turn
on some very powerful business
people.
What was it about him initially
that made you think he could be
good for Russia?
>> He came in to replace a man
named Boris yeltsin.
Boris yeltsin was the original
president after the fall of the
soviet union.
Boris yeltsin was a crazy guy,
sort of drunk, and he allowed
the oligarchs, these 22
oligarchs, to steal 40% of the
country.
The rest of the Russians were
living in destitute property.
I and everybody else in the
country were desperate for
somebody to restore order.
Putin presents himself as a
modern technocrat.
He wasn't drunk, he was slim, he
spoke English.
He remembered things from
meeting to meeting.
For the first couple of years,
he behaved kind of like a boring
technocrat, no personal charisma
at all, and we thought he was
going to be getting rid of the
oligarchs.
It turned out he wasn't
interested in getting rid of the
oligarchs, he wanted to become
the biggest oligarch himself.
There is an expression that
power corrupts and absolute
power corrupts absolutely and
that was the story of Putin.
He became immensely corrupt and
powerful and it got worse and
worse until 22 years later, he
is the richest man in the world,
has a net worth north of $200
billion, and doesn't care about
anything, including invading
foreign countries and killing
tens of thousands of civilians.
Judy: Explain in a nutshell, how
does Vladimir Putin hold onto
the power he has?
You've described corruption,
spoken about the threats, but
how does it work?
>> It's very simple.
He pretends there is a
democracy, but anybody who wants
to become a challenger to him
gets killed.
A man named Boris numb solve
gets imprisoned.
Alexei navalny.
There is no competition.
Anybody who wants to run against
him looks at these examples and
says, I don't want to do that.
If he is ever starting to worry
about the people in Russia
getting tired of him, he starts
a war.
This is the third ward.
One was in Jordan in 2008, one
in crimea 2013.
Every time he starts a war, his
approval ratings rise, almost
automatic.
That's how he stays in power.
Judy: Given what you know about
him, what do you believe he
wants now?
The Ukrainians have put up much
fiercer resistance than the
Russians expected, by all
accounts.
How long do you think he is
going to continue to push to try
to take over Ukraine?
>> He is never going to stop.
Vladimir Putin is in this war to
be in this war.
He doesn't care about Ukraine
per se.
He cares about having a foreign
enemy.
He cares about the people in
Russia rallying against the
foreign enemy and around him.
He doesn't want to be in a
losing war, and he is losing
based on the things the
Ukrainians are doing.
There is only one thing to do,
become more brutal, kill more
civilians, and create more
heartbreak because that's his
modus operandi.
Judy: Where do you see this war
going?
>> Three outcomes.
The Ukrainians win, the best
outcome, not a high probability.
Another outcome is that Putin
wins, somehow gets Ukraine, in
which case he will be at the
baltic border, Estonia,
Lithuania, maybe Poland,
challenging us with nato.
I wouldn't put that at a very
high probability because the
Ukrainians are doing a good job.
The most likely scenario, 70%,
is this carries on and on in the
most heartbreaking way.
Judy: The book is "Freezing
order: A true story of money
laundering, murder, and
surviving Vladimir Putin's
wrath."