>> James: OUR NEXT GUEST IS A CELEBRATED
HISTORIAN, PHILOSOPHER AND BEST SELLING AUTHOR WHOSE BOOKS HAVE
SOLD NEARLY 30 MILLION COPIES WORLDWIDE, HIS NEWEST BOOK
SAPIENS, A GRAPHIC HISTORY IS BRILLIANT AND OUT RIGHT NOW,
PLEASE WELCOME ONE OF THE BRIGHTEST MINDS AN PLANET EARTH,
THE INCREDIBLE YEW VAL NOAH HARARI-- YUVAL NOAH HARARI.
THANK YOU FOR COMING BACK ON THE SHOW, WE ARE SO HAPPY.
>> THANK YOU FOR INVITING ME AGAIN.
>> James: WE WOULD HAVE YOU ON EERY WEEK, JUST FOR ME
PERSONALLY FOR MY OWN SENSE OF SELF BECAUSE WE BOTH, I THINK IT
WAS NEARLY SEVEN MONTHS AGO, ABOUT A MONTH INTO THE PANDEMIC.
>> YES.
>> James: HOW ARE YOU DOING?
WHAT IS THE CURRENT SITUATION IN ISRAEL RIGHT NOW.
>> WELL, I'M DOING FINE, MY HUSBAND IS OKAY, MY FAMILY IS
OKAY.
BUT MY COUNTRY ISN'T OKAY.
THE SITUATION BOTH MEDICALLY AND POLITICALLY IS GOING REALLY FROM
BAD TO WORSE.
>> WELL YEAH, I MEAN THAT FEELS TRUE OF WHEN I SPEAK TO MY
PARENTS IN BRITAIN, IT FEELS TRUE OF WHEN I TURN ON THE NEWS
HERE IN AMERICA.
I MEAN WE'VE JUST GONE THROUGH A VERY DIFFICULT ICIVE
PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION-- DIVISIVE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION HERE.
FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, WHAT IS YOUR TAKE ON HOW THIS ELECTION
HAS PLAYED OUT.
>> WELL, ON THE ONE HAND THE GOOD NEWS ASK THAT AS FAR AS CAN
I TELL IT WAS ONE OF THE MOST PEACEFUL, IN TERMS OF THE
ABSENCE OF PHYSICAL VIOLENCE.
>> James: YEAH.
>> WHICH IS A VERY GOOD SIGN.
ON THE OTHER HAND, YEAH, THE LEVEL OF NOT JUST HATRED BETWEEN
AMERICAN CITIZENS IS REALLY ALARMING.
YOU KNOW, IN PREVIOUS, I DON'T KNOW, 50 YEARS AGO, AMERICANS OF
ALL POLITICAL SIDES WERE AFRAID OF FOREIGNERS, THE RUSSIANS ARE
COMING, TO DESTROY OUR WAY OF LIFE.
NOW AMERICANS ARE AFRAID OF THOSE FELLOW FENS MUCH MORE THAN
NIBBLES ON THE PLANET.
THE DEMOCRATS ARE AFRAID THAT THE REPUBLICANS ARE COMING TO
DESTROY THEIR WAY OF LIFE AND THE REPUBLICANS HAVE THE SAME
FEAR ABOUT THE DEMOCRATS.
AND IN THE LONG RUN YOU CAN'T HAVE A DEMOCRACY IN SUCH A
SITUATION.
>>.
IT IS NOT JUST THE U.S. ALL OVER THE WORLD WE ARE SEEING THE
COLLAPSE OF NATIONAL SOLIDARITY.
I KNOW THAT MANY PEOPLE TALK ABOUT THE RESURGENCE OF
NATIONALISM.
BUT ACTUALLY ALMOST EVERYWHERE YOU LOOK YOU SEE THAT NATIONAL
CIVIL IS COLLAPSING-- NATIONALISM IS IN
COULD LAFNSING, IN CRISIS T IS NOT ABOUT HATING FOREIGNERS,
THAT IS FINE, THERE IS NO PROBLEM THERE.
NATIONALISM IS REALLY LOVING YOUR EXAIT YOTS AND THERE IS
LESS AND LESS SUCH LOVE ON MUCH OF THE PLANET.
AND YOU SEE POLITICIANS WITH WHO CLAIM TO BE NATIONALISTS AND
PATRIOTS AND THEY ARE ACTUALLY DELIBERATELY UNDERMINING THE
SOLIDARITY WITHIN THEIR OWN NATION.
THEY ARE BEHAVING AS ANTINATIONALIST LEADERS AND THAT
IS A VERY BIG DANGER, ESPECIALLY FOR DEMOCRACY BECAUSE I DON'T
THINK THAT YOU CAN HAVE A FUNCTIONING DEMOCRACY WITHOUT A
STRONG SENSE OF NATIONAL SOLIDARITY.
>> James: I COULDN'T AGREE WITH YOU MORE AND I HAVE NEVER
REALLY THOUGHT ABOUT IT IN THAT WAY, REALLY.
I THINK SO MUCH IS DOWN TO MISINFORMATION AND THE WAY THAT
WE RECEIVE INFORMATION NOW AND ONE OF THE THINGS I'VE BEEN
KNOCK SHOCKED BY THIS PAST 12 MONTH OR SEVEN, AIDE MONTHS IS
HOW EASILY PEOPLE BELIEVE IN CONSPIRACY THEORIES.
LIKE WHY DO YOU THINK WE AS PEOPLE ARE SO VULNERABLE TO
MISINFORMATION.
>> YOU KNOW, THE TRUTH IS PAINFUL OFTEN AND COMPLICATED.
IF YOU LOOK AT THE EPIDEMIC, FOR EXAMPLE, TO JUST UNDERSTAND WHAT
A VIRUS IS IT'S SUCH A COMPLICATED THING, A VIRUS IS
NOT EVEN A LIVING BEING STRK NOT AN ANIMAL, IT DOESN'T EAT T
DOESN'T RECRUIT-- BY ITSELF T IS REALLY JUST A PIECE OF
BIOLOGICAL CODE, GENETIC CODE THAT HAS THE AMAZING ABILITY TO
INFILTRATE OUR BODY, HIJACK THE MECHANISM OF THE CELLS IN OUR
BODY AND TELL THE CELLS TO PRODUCE MORE COPIES OF ME, AND
THAT IS HOW IT GOES VIRAL.
MORE AND MORE COPIES OF THE CODE GOING INTO THE NEARBY CELLS AND
PEOPLE AND YOU HAVE AN EPIDEMIC.
THIS IS SUCH A STRANGE THING.
A COMPLICATED THING TO UNDERSTAND.
ST IT IS MUCH EASIER TO BELIEVE THAT YOU KNOW, THERE IS SOME
GROUP OF BILLIONAIRES WITH WHO CREATED THIS THIRNG IN SOME
LABORATORY IN ORDER TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD.
AND WHAT MAKES IT EVEN MORE DIFFICULT IS IT VERY OFTEN
SCIENTISTS DON'T MAKE THE EFFORT OR DON'T SEEK IN THE LANGUAGE
THAT MOST PEOPLE UNDERSTAND.
YOU DON'T NEED, YOU SHOULDN'T NEED A COLLEGE DEGREE IN BUY
ONLY-- BIOLOGY OR ECONOMICS OR HISTORY OR ANYTHING TO
UNDERSTAND BASIC THINGS LIKE WHAT VIRUSES ARE OR HOW
PANDEMICS SPREAD.
BUT SCIENTISTS SHOULD MAKE THE EFFORT TO THINK, TO THE GENERAL
PUBLIC IN AN ACCESSIBLE WAY, YOU KNOW, AMONG THEMSELVES
SCIENTISTS OFTEN SEEK IN NUMBERS AND STATISTICS AND MODELS AND
THIS ISN'T WORK, PEOPLE THINK IN SOCIAL, WE ARE SOCIAL ANIMALS SO
YOU NEED TO MAKE THE EFFORT TO EXPLAIN SCIENCE IN A MORE
ACCESSIBLE WAY.
>> WELL, SPEAKING OF STORIES, LET'S TALK ABOUT YOUR BRILLIANT
NEW BOOK SAPIENS, A GRAPHIC HISTORY, THIS IS A GRAPHIC NOVEL
OF ONE OF YOUR MOST POPULAR AND ONE OF MY FAVORITE BOOKS
SAPIENS, WHAT MADE YOU WANT TO DO THIS TO TURN IT INTO A
GRAPHIC NOVEL, BECAUSE IT IS A REALLY INTERESTING WAY OF
PRESENTING THE BOOK.
>> IT CONNECTS TO WHAT WE SAW EARLIER, TO BRING BRING SCIENCE
TO THE PEOPLE, TO MORE PEOPLE, NOT JUST TO A SMALL EDUCATED
ELITE THAT READS SCIENCE BOOKS BUT TO REACH EVERYBODY AND FOR
THAT YOU YOU, WE EXPERIMENTED IT IS NOT JUST ME.
I TEAMED UP WITH TWO VERY GIFTED ARTISTS, IT IS A GRAPHIC NOVEL.
SO I HAD TO TEAM UP WITH OTHER PEOPLE AND WE, IT WAS THE MOST
FUN PROJECT I EVER WORKED ON.
IT WAS JUST ONE SPEMPLET AFTER THE OTHER OF LET'S BREAK ALL THE
CONVENTIONS OF TELLING SCIENCE AND TRY NEW THINGS.
SO WE HAVE ONE DOCTOR WHICH IS LIKE A DETECTIVE STORY.
WE CREATED THIS FICTIONAL HE DETECTIVE LOPEZ AND SHE GOES
AROUND THE WORLD INVESTIGATING THE LARGEST ECOLOGICAL CRIME IN
THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD, THE DISAPPEARING OF LARGE ANIMALS OF
THE PLANET BEGINNING AROUND 50,000 YEARS AGO.
AND SHE IS ON THE TRAIL OF THESE SERIAL KILLERS.
AND THIS ONE CHAPTER.
AND ONE CHAPTER IS LIKE A SCIENCE FICTION SUPERHERO MOVIE.
WE CREATED THE FIRKSAL CHARACTER OF DR. FICTION AND SHE PERSON
FIES THE HUMAN ABILITY TO CREATE AND BELIEVE MYTHOLOGY AND
FICTIONAL STORIES AND ANOTHER IS-- WE EXPLAIN EVOLUTION
THROUGH THE MEDIUM OF A REALITY TV SHOW WITH DIFFERENT SPECIES
COMPETING FOR SURVIVAL.
>> James: IT IS A REALLY ENTERTAINING, ONE OF THE
SUPERHEROES, IS YOURSELF RIGHT HERE.
LOOK AT YOU THERE, HOW DOES IT FEEL TO SEE YOURSELF AS A
CARTOON CHARACTER WBLGZ NOT VERY COMFORTABLE.
WE HAD A HUGE DISCUSSION ON THAT.
THEY CAME WITH THE IDEA OF HAVING ME AS A CHARACTER IN THE
BOOKK AND I SAID ABSOLUTELY NO WAY.
AND THEY CONVINCED ME BUT WE HAD TO COMPROMISE, WE WILL HAVE AN
ENTIRE GROUP OF SCIENTISTS EXPLAINING DIFFERENT THINGS.
FIRST OF ALL BECAUSE SCIENCE IS A COLLABORATIVE EFFORT.
IT IS NEVER THE WORK OF A SINGLE INDIVIDUAL.
LIKE I DON'T KNOW MUCH ABOUT OUR THEOLOGY.
I READ THE PAPERS, THE BOOKS ABOUT THEOLOGY BUT I NEVER
CONDUCTED THEOLOGICAL EXPLANATION SO WE HAVE A
THEOLOGIST CHARACTER THERE AND LIKEWISE A BIOLOGIST AND IT IS
IMPORTANT TO ALSO SHOW DIFFERENT SCIENTISTS HAVE DIFFERENT
OPINIONS THEY SOMETIMES ARGUE, THEY SOMETIMES DISAGREE.
SO IT IS NOT JUST ME IT IS AN ENTIRE COLLECTION.
>> ONE OF THE THINGS YOU TALK ABOUT IN THE BOOK IS HOMOSAPIENS
MAY DIE OUT IN KIND OF LIKE 80 YEARS, IS WHAT YOU SAY.
IN THE NEXT CENTURY OR SO THAT WE AS HOMOSAPIENS MAY CEASE TO
EXIST.
WHY IS THAT AND WHO IS REPLACING US.
>> FIRST OF ALL SPECIES DISAPPEAR.
99 PERCENT OF SPECIES THAT ONCE EXISTED DON'T EXIST ANY MORE.
50,000 YEARS AGO YOU HAD AT LEAST SIX DIFFERENT HUMAN
SPECIES ON EARTH BESIDES US, THE NEANDERTHALS AND OTHERS THAT ARE
NOT HERE ANY MORE.
SO SPECIES INCLUDING HUMAN SPECIES DISAPPEAR.
NOW REGARDING OUR OWN FATE HOMO SAPIENS WE ARE NOW CREATING
TECHNOLOGY TO REENGINEER LIFE.
BIO ENGINEERING ON THE ONE HAND AND ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE ON
THE OTHER HAND SO GIVEN THIS TECHNOLOGY I THINK IT IS VERY
LIKELY THAT IN A CENTURY OR TWO EARTH WILL BE DOMINATED BY
ENTITIES THAT ARE MUCH MORE DIFFERENT FROM US THAN WE ARE
DIFFERENT FROM KNEE ANDER THAWLS.
WE SHARE MOST OF OURED ABOUTEE, OUR BRAIN, OUR HE POATION WITH
THEE ANDER THALS, WE ARE CERTAINLY ORGANIC CREATURES LIKE
THEM.
BUT IN 200 YEARS EARTH MIGHT BE DOMINATED BY THE FIRST INORGANIC
CREATURES IN THE HISTORY OF LIFE.
SO GIVEN THE POWER OF THIS TECHNOLOGY, I THINK THERE ARE
JUST TWO OPTIONS.
EITHER WE DESTROY OURSELVES IN THE PROCESS, OR WE UPGRADE
OURSELVES INTO SOMETHING WE CAN'T EVEN IMAGINE.
WE CAN'T IMAGINE IT BECAUSE EVEN OUR IMAGINATION IS THE PRODUCT
OF ORGANIC CHEMISTRY.
AND HERE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE EMERGENCE OF ENTITIES WHICH
WILL NOT BE SUBJECT TO THE LAWS OF ORGANIC CHEMISTRY.
>> James: YUVAL, I LOVE TALKING IT TO YOU SO MUCH.
WILL YOU MAKE SURE YOU COME BACK ON THE SHOW EVERY SIX MONTHS