- [Russell Moore] The Bible obviously starts with God's creation of the universe
and then continues with the theme of God as Creator all the way through.
I'm wondering if we think about the essentials, and what's necessary to
believe, what's necessary to be said. First of all, I wonder, when you're
talking unbelievers...we're talking about the people who might not have really any
conception of the Christian faith, what if anything should we bring up when we're
talking about issues of creation?
- [Tim Keller] Well, I think you need to stress the relationship of God to the
creations. There's an awful lot of folks now that are...they wouldn't call
themselves pantheists...but there's a lot of people when they say they're reli...
, they're not religious or spiritual. And they have a sense of wonder about the
world, and they know there's more to it than just this material world,
and they consider that a kind of spirituality. If you push them a little
bit, it really...they do not believe that there was God who existed before the
universe and created the material universe as a work of art.
Proverbs 8 actually says he was delighting in humankind as he was making
us. And so the idea that you have a personal God who makes us in the light as
a...but He exists before the world, He's Transcendent above the world,
He creates the world. That's extraordinarily important and also the
world is not an accident. It's also not the result of the forces of an evil and a
good force coming together but you have a...it was all good. All those things need
to be stressed. It's not usually even with a non-believer wants to go,
they want to talk about evolution and creation right away. Because they want to
talk about religion...creation as a religion versus science battle.
You want to go back and say let me give you all the reasons why Augustine actually
said to the polytheist and the pagans of his day, "Your doctrine of creation isn't
ever going to lead to peace and justice in the world. Because you actually believe in
multiple power centers and that the universe is just a result of a bunch of
violent forces coming together." And he says, "So I am the Christian,
and I believe God made the world as a work of art, out of love and joy." And he says
that the Christian doctrine of creation is a basis for believing that is possible to
have a harmonious, just society. I would rather push it back to things like that.
And then I have to say secondly, I say honestly the relationship of creation to
evolution isn't the heart here. And I even say there are at least four,
five, or six, different Orthodox Christian views of evolution and that sort of thing.
Let's not go there first. So first I go to the doctrine of creation and the
relationship of God to Creation, then I'd rather take them to Jesus.
And just skip that for the time being though. I know there are some people who
would say no, that you've got to give them the right view of that.
- [Ligon Duncan] Yeah, following on that, when a skeptical, intelligent,
unbeliever is talking to you, he...as a Christian...he probably assumes that your
view of creation is an intellectual liability. And so what I want to do is say
no...first of all I want to own that. No, I actually believe this is true and I
think it's important and I think it's compelling and that's part of what Tim was
just saying. Why is this compelling? Because my view is actually more
compelling than your view is, skeptical, unbelieving, friend. You know I've got a
more compelling view. And then say and we don't think that Christianity and science
are actually in conflict, and you know there are a lot of ways you can go about
doing that. One is to say, really, Protestant Christianity very much laid the
philosophical foundation for the rise of science as we know it today.
So I think you want to get at those kinds of things when you're talking
non-believers.
- Well, I also think that there's a place for saying "I don't know."
There are all sorts of questions. Well, how does Genesis
intersect with quantum physics? or whatever the person is interested in
To say I don't know exactly how that relates. What about within the church?
I mean Tim was mentioning if five or six Orthodox Christian views.
When you're working together and we're in a church or we're in a ministry,
what are the essentials in terms of, these are sort of the boundaries of what we all
have to agree on when we're talking about creation in order to learn to recognize
one another as orthodox and there's teachers within the church and...
- I want to emphasize at least three things with folks. One, is creation
ex nihilo. Another is the goodness of creation, and then another is
the special creation of Adam and Eve. And let me tell you why.
Creation ex nihilo now, as you know that's debated even amongst
Christian Scholars, the status of that in history. But the reason why,
is the creator creature distinction is the foundational distinction of Christianity
with regard to the doctrine of God and doctrine of everything else.
If you don't have a God who has brought everything else into being,
you've got a very different kind of theological system than Christianity.
And so creation... God being the cause of everything else. God not being a part of
the created order. The created order not being birthed out of God,
but the created order spoken into being by God. You don't even need Bara in
Genesis 1 for that. All you need is, in the beginning, God, so that God is the
cause of everything else. That's hugely important in Christian theology.
The second thing, the goodness of creation. Genesis 1:1 solved the Gnostic
controversy. The Gnostic controversy was about the goodness of creation.
And the church fathers went back and they read Genesis 1:1, got it created,
and then they read the end of Genesis 1 where it said everything was good,
and they say well that's it. Any theological document that claims that the
creation is not good, is not orthodox. That was it. It was out.
That Hebrews 1 solved the whole gnostic controversy. So the goodness of creation
is hugely important from a Christian standpoint. And then, the special creation
of Adam and Eve. Acknowledging Adam and Eve as the fountainhead of humanity and
the federal headship of Christ...of Adam. So, that you have the Adam Christ
parallels of the Gospels. Those are the three things
that I want to start off with.
- Yeah, I would actually think though, the first two things you just mentioned,
I would want to talk to with a non-believer.Because that to me is what I
mean by saying what is the relationship of God to the creation,
and they're also quite...that's quite attractive I think. Because you could
really say, just as Augustine said, that the polytheistic approach was that the
universe is a chaotic field of vying powers centers. Actually,
that's what the modern secular view is too, that there's no love behind the
universe. There's no...it really wasn't a work of art. It really is just...it's just
about power. It's not about love, it's about power. It's how we got here.
Nature rent tooth and Claw. And that's all we are. So how do you build a society of
justice and peace, when you say, well nature is really all about power.
I think that's regularly the non-Christian first, all that. With a Christian,
I do go to Adam and Eve too. I would say, look, there are a lot of different
understandings of how old the Earth are...or how old the Earth is,
and there's a lot of different understandings of what the days are in
Genesis 1, and to what degree evolution was part of how God created things.
I would say there are several gradations and I say there is four,
or five, or six approaches there are, but I say where I would stop is with Adam and
Eve. And I would say not only was there an actual Adam and Eve, otherwise,
I do not understand how the Pauline understanding of salvation works.
I just don't know how Romans 5 works. But I'd even say look I know what my
Christians who are scientists tell me, and that is, they say, that all human beings
were not genetically related to a human couple. That's right now the consensus.
I'll be honest, I'll just say, they say it's not the consensus.
There was a little group of people somewhere in sub-Saharan Africa and that's
where everybody came from. But when I read the text, I look and it says...it sure
looks to me like it's saying, that God created Adam and Eve, and he didn't just
adapt a former...a human-like being and adapt and put the image of God's...it
doesn't seem like that's what it's saying. It says we're created out of the dust of
the ground. And I do think in the end, even though I could be wrong in reading
that text, I feel like I've got to read have my reading of the text correct my
understanding of what the science says. I mean in other words science is the way of
telling me truth, and the scripture is the way of telling me truth,
but if they are clashing, even though I know the science might show me that I'm
really reading the scripture wrong, and that has happened in the past,
where the science came in and said, "Does the Bible really teach that the
Earth...that the sun revolves around the Earth?" See it's impossible for the
science to make you ask did you read the text right? But if you go back and read
the text and you come to your conclusions as far as you can say before God,
I'm trying my best to read this is what I think the scripture says.
Right now it says to me, no, there's an Adam and Eve, and everyone came from Adam
and Eve, and that they were a special creation. And so even though I don't have
an answer for my science friends but that's where I stand.
- And just like you said on the earlier questions, that gives us an enormous
advantage as believers talking to the unbelievers in the world,
because we've got a reason why there is equality and dignity
for every human being.
- Yeah, that's the way you go after that. You really do...
- When my friend, [inaudible] was talking to a group of folks who were
denying the history of Adam and Eve, and saying, well we came from these different
kinds varieties of people, he says, "I know where that goes." And so I've got a
reason why humanity is one and ought to be treated with dignity.
- Well and within the church sometimes we argue and spar over all sorts of
controversies as you know mentioned, but I find that our biggest problem,
or my biggest problem, is believing those Central things. I'm a creature.
You know that I have limits put on by a creator to whom I...thats really often the
most difficult thing for us to submit fully.
- Yes, it is.
- All right. In other words, we're created and there's a givenness to our humanity.
God gave it to us and we have to in a sense, submit to it. So we don't live in
an age in which we like that idea. The idea that is we're supposed to be able to
make ourselves whatever we want to do. The doctrine of creation,
there's bad news in it. There are ways to take modern cultural narratives and use
them against them and say, look, are you for racial equality? Well,
then you should actually wish there was two people that we're all descended from.
Do you like the idea of justice and peace in the world? Then you...in other words
what you can actually do you is to use some of the cultural narratives against
them saying some of these traditional Christian doctrines, you should be at
least open to them because they really enhance the thing you already believe.
- And even personally a meaning and a narrative life.
- Oh yeah, you were made for a purpose.