>> Stephen: HEY, EVERYBODY, WELCOME BACK.
MY NEXT GUESTS ARE BOTH LEGENDS IN THEIR FIELDS.
ONE IS AN EMMY AWARD-WINNING DOCUMENTARIAN, THE OTHER A TONY
AWARD-WINNING ACTOR.
THEY'VE TEAMED UP FOR THE NEW FILM, "BENJAMIN FRANKLIN."
PLEASE WELCOME BACK TO "THE LATE SHOW," KEN BURNS AND MANDY
PATINKIN.
♪ ♪ ♪ ( APPLAUSE )
( CHEERS AND APPLAUSE ).
>> Stephen: THERE YOU GO.
A FULL HOUSE.
THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT.
>> WE'RE BACK.
>> Stephen: GOOD TO SEE YOU BOTH.
>> NICE TO SEE YOU.
>> Stephen: KEN, WELCOME BACK.
>> NU.
>> Stephen: MANDY, WELCOME BACK TO BROADWAY.
>> OH, MY GOD.
I'M TELLING YOU.
THIS IS THE FIRST TIME I'VE BEEN IN A THEATER SINCE THE PANDEMIC
STARTED.
>> Stephen: OH, SERIOUSLY.
WOW.
>> I'M TELLING YOU, IT'S REALLY --
>> Stephen: IT'S A NICE FEELING, ISN'T IT?
>> THANK YOU ALL FOR BRINGING ME BACK TO LIFE!
( CHEERS AND APPLAUSE ) >> Stephen: NOW Y'ALL--
>> OH, MY GOD!
>> Stephen: Y'ALL HAVE BEEN WORKING-- HOW LONG HAVE YOU GUYS
BEEN WORKING ON THIS-- THE DOCUMENTARY ON BENJAMIN
FRANKLIN.
>> I THINK 250 YEARS?
>> IT ONLY FEELS LIKE THAT.
>> Stephen: HOW LONG HAVE YOU GUYS BEEN WORKING TOGETHER ON
IT?
SPOILER ALERT, MANDY VOICES BENJAMIN FRANKLIN.
>> WE HAVE BEEN WORKING VIRTUALLY A YEAR AND A HALF, A
LITTLE BIT MORE.
AND TONIGHT IS THE FIRST TIME WE'VE MET PERSON TO PERSON.
SO IN THE DRESSING ROOM-- ( APPLAUSE ).
>> Stephen: REALLY?
THAT'S LOVELY.
>> ZOOM, ZOOM, ZOOM, ZOOM.
>> Stephen: ANY SURPRISES?
IS SOMEBODY TALLER THAN YOU THOUGHT?
>> WELL, I-- HIS STATURE IS GIGANTIC.
SO-- >> HE'S NEVER A MENCH THAN I
THOUGHT HE WAS.
>> Stephen: KEN, WHY-- WHY DID YOU CHOOSE BENJAMIN FRANKLIN?
IT'S A TWO-PARTER.
WHY BENJAMIN FRANKLIN AS YOUR LATEST SUBJECT, AND WHY WERE YOU
INSPIRED TO HAVE MANDY VOICE HIM?
>> SO, YOU KNOW, THE SUBJECTS PICK ME.
THEY'RE NOT A CONSCIOUS DECISION.
IT'S THE WAY -- >> Stephen: YOU USE A OUIJA
BOARD OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT?
>> KIND OF.
YOU HAVE AN IDEA IN YOUR HEAD AND IT DROPS DOWN INTO YOUR
HEART AND YOU SAY, OKAY, WE'LL DO IT.
HE'S THE MOST ACCESSIBLE OF THE FOUNDING FATHERS.
HE IS THE OLDEST, THE WISEST.
HE IS THE ONLY AMERICAN KNOWN THROUGHOUT THE WORLD FOR HIS
SCIENTIFIC DISCOVERIES.
HE'S THE GREATEST DIPLOMAT IN AMERICAN HISTORY, SECURING THE
FRENCH SUPPORT THAT WINS THE REVOLUTION.
HE'S AS IMPORTANT AS WASHINGTON.
KNOW HIM, KNOW US.
HE'S AN EDITOR OF JEFFERSON'S PROSE IN THE DECLARATION IN THE
SUBTLELEST BUT MOST IMPORTANT WAYS.
HE FORCES THE COMPROGRAMS, SOME TRAGUC, OF THE CONSTITUTION.
H'S AN INVENTOR, THAT HE HOLDS ALL THIS STUFF WITHOUT PATENTS.
HE'S FILLED WITH FLAWS AND CONTRADICTIONS.
AND THAT'S THE AMAZING THING.
>> Stephen: NO DIFFERENCE.
>> RIGHT, EXACTLY.
A MAN OF ACCOMPLISHMENT, LIKE MANDY.
>> I SAY THAT WITH ALL MODESTY.
>> Stephen: AS ALWAYS.
>> MY YOUNGEST DAUGHTER, WILLA, WHO IS HERE, AND I WERE WATCHING
"HOMELAND."
SHE SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN WATCHING "HOMELAND" AT AGE EIGHT
AND I'M COVERING UP HER EYES AND TRYING TO EXPLAIN STATE-CRAFT,
SPY CRAFT, AFGHANISTAN AND RUSSIAN AND AMERICAN RELATIONS
WHEN I SUDDENLY WENT, MANDY-- SAUL BER OFFENSEON, THE
CHARACTER HE PLAYS, MANDY SHOULD BE FRANKLIN.
AND WE HAVE PLOWED FROM THAT MOMENT ON.
AND IT WAS THE BEST CHOICE.
I'VE WORKED, WITH GREAT PEOPLE.
HE HAS INHABITED THIS MAN, THIS HUMAN BEING IN THE MOST LOVING
WAY.
ALL THE HIR, ALL THE PATHOS IN THE CREATION OF THE UNITED
STATES, ALL THE CONTRADICTIONS OF SLAVERY AND OTHER THINGS.
>> Stephen: MANDY, DOING FRANKLIN, VOICING FRANKLIN, AS
YOU DOVE INTO THIS, YOU KNOW, A REAL PERSON BUT A CHARACTER IN A
SENSE, WHAT DID YOU LEARN ABOUT HIM THAT YOU DIDN'T KNOW?
>> FIRST OF ALL, HIRS HUMOR.
LIKE YOU, WHO WOULD WE BE AS A NATION WITHOUT GUYS LIKE YOU AND
BENJAMIN FRANKLIN?
>> Stephen: VERY SIMILAR.
( CHEERS AND APPLAUSE ).
>> I MEAN, COME ON!
>> Audience: STEPHEN!
STEPHEN!
>> REALLY.
IT'S -- >> Stephen: WELL, THAT'S ALL
WE HAVE TIME FOR.
THANKS, FELLAS.
>> AND I DO IT EXACTLY -- >> Stephen: THE WAY I WROTE
IT.
>> BUT THEN, THEN HIS HUMOR, AND THEN, YOU KNOW, HIS GENIUS, HOW
TO INVENT THINGS.
THEN I START TO LEARN AS I'M GOING ALONG, AND I'M GOING I
LOVE THIS GUY.
I CAN'T BELIEVE I'M GETTING TO BE THIS GUY.
HE INVENT THE LIBRARY.
HE DOESN'T WANT ANY PATENT FOR IT.
HE JUST GIVES IT AWAY.
HE INVENT THE LIGHTNING ROD, GIVES IT AWAY ALL OVER THE
WORLD.
DOESN'T WANT ANYTHING FOR IT.
HE'S A PRINTER.
HE WANTS TO BRING PEOPLE INTO THIS COUNTRY.
HE'S A LADIES' MAN, WHICH I'M NOT.
YOU KNOW, I WANTED TO BE LIKE HIM IN MY -- YOU KNOW, IN MY BIG
YEARS.
I HAD A BUDDY OF MINE, MY DEAREST FRIEND, AND WE'D SIT AT
THE BAR AND PRACTICE.
AND I SAID I DON'T KNOW HOW TO ASK HER OUT.
LET'S PRACTICE.
I'LL BE HER, YOU BE YOU.
AND IT TANKED EVERY TIME.
>> Stephen: KEEP IN MIND, THIS, THIS GUY WAS RAKING THEM
IN.
>> RAKING THEM IN.
RAKING THEM IN.
>> Stephen: WE HAVE-- WE HAVE A CLIP HERE OF MANDY AS
FRANKLIN.
BEFORE WE GO TO THIS CLIP, CAN YOU TELL US AGO WHEN HAPPENING?
WHAT'S HE TALKING ABOUT IN FRANCE HERE?
>> SO THE REVOLUTION HAS STARTED.
HE'S DISPATCHED BY THE CONTINENTAL CONGRESS TO GO TO
FRANCE AND TRY TO GET MONEY, MATERIEL, AND SOLDIERS AND A
FLEET, AND IT'S GOING TO BE THE MOST DIFFICULT DIPLOMATIC
MISSION IN THE HISTORY OF THE UNITED STATES.
BUT HE'S THE MOST FAMOUS AMERICAN FOR HAVING TAMED
LIGHTNING.
SO HE'S-- HE'S THIS ROCK STAR IN FRANCE.
>> YOU WANT TO SLEEP WITH HIM.
>> THEY LOVE HIM.
>> Stephen: HERE'S SOME OF THE WAYS THAT WAS EXPRESSED.
>> THE CLAY MEDALDALIOPION OF ME WAS THE FIRST OF ITS KIND MADE
IN FRANCE AND THE NUMBERS SOLD IS INCREDIBLE.
THESE WITH THE PICTURES, BUSTS, AND PRINTS, OF WHICH COPIES UPON
COPIES ARE SPREAD EVERYWHERE, HAVE MADE YOUR FATHER'S FACE AS
WELL KNOWN AS THAT OF THE MOON.
>> THE KING, LOUIE XVI, BECAME SLIGHTLY ANNOYED AND AMUSED BY
THE CULT OF FRANKLIN.
HE HAD A CHAMBER POT WITH AN IMAGE OF FRANKLIN PUT ON THE
INSIDE OF IT, JUST AS A WAY OF SAYING,s, ENOUGH, ALREADY!"
>> Stephen: THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS THAT PEOPLE FORGET.
( APPLAUSE ) ABOUT FRANKLIN.
IS THAT-- WELL, OF COURSE WE KNOW WHO BENJAMIN FRANKLIN IS.
WE TEND TO THINK OF WASHINGTON AND LINCOLN.
BUT FOR, SAY, THE FIRST CENTURY OF THE UNITED STATES THERE WAS
NOBODY WHO COMPARED TO THE FAME OF BENJAMIN FRANKLIN.
>> NOBODY.
>> Stephen: HE WAS KNOWN ALL OVER THE WORLD.
>> BECAUSE HE HAD TAMED LIGHTNING.
HE SAVED LIVES.
HE WAS AS IMPORTANT AS ICEAC NEWTON A CENTURY EARLIER THIS
THAT CENTURY.
AND HE'S THE ONLY PERSON WHO COULD HAVE DONE IT.
HIS SON WAS OLDER THAN THOMAS JEFFERSON AND JOHN ADAMS AND
PATRICK HENRY AND JAMES MADISON.
SO HE IS THE WISE OLD MAN THAT UNDERSTANDS HE'S THE PERSON WHO
IS ABLE TO FORGE THE COUNTRY TOGETHER.
I MEAN, SHE AS RESPONSIBLE AS WASHINGTON FOR US BEING HERE,
FOR US BEING US AND THE U.S.
>> WHAT WERE THE THREE COUNTRIES -- THIS IS MY TEACHER-- WHAT
WERE THE THREE COUNTRIES THAT WOULDN'T SIGNED THE DECLARATION
OF INDEPENDENCE.
>> THE STATE.
>> THE THREE STATES.
>> IT WAS ONE CONSTITUENT THAT HELD OFF.
12 OF THE 13 COLONIES SIGNED UP FOR IT.
BUT ONE TOOK A FEW MORE DAYS, NEW YORK, TO DECIDE TO SIGN IT.
>> BUT THEY ALSO DIDN'T WANT TO BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T WANT TO GIVE
UP SLAVERY.
>> SO-- SO-- THAT'S THE CONSTIT.
>> THE CONSTITUTION.
>> GIVE ME A BREAK.
>> Stephen: THAT'S CONSTITUTION, THE DECLARATION IS
THE ONE WHERE FRANKLIN PUT THE TREASURE MAP ON THE BACK.
>> RIGHT, OH, RIGHT.
NO, THE TREASURE MAP IS ON THE FRONT.
AND JEFFERSON-- >> YOU GOT IT WRONG!
>> JEFFERSON-- JEFFERSON SENDS THE FIRST DRAFT TO FRANKLIN,
RIGHT.
AND HE SAYS, WE HOLD THESE TRUTHS TO BE SACRED AND
UNDENIABLE."
AND FRANKLIN GOES, "UH-UH.
THIS IS BEAUTIFUL, BUT WE'RE IN THE ENLIGHTENMENT, BUDDY.
THESE ARE SELF-EVIDENT TRUTH, LIKE THE SUN RISES IN THE EAST,
THAT ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL-- ASTERISK-- THOMAS JEFFERSON OWNS
HUMAN BEINGS.
ASTERISK, BY THE TIME WE GET TO THE CONSTITUTION, THE SOUTHERN
STATES DON'T WANT TO JOIN, UNLESS THEIR PROPERTY, THEIR
SLAVES ARE COUNT FORWARD THE PURPOSES OF REPRESENTATION.
AND WE FORGE THE TRAGIC COMPROMISE THAT CREATES THE
UNITED STATES WITHOUT WHICH WE WOULD NOT BE TOGETHER.
WE'D BE WARRING CITY STATES, BY CLAUSE THAT IS SO HORRIFIC, THE
THREE-FIFTHS, COUNTING THE BLACK, STOLEN AFRICAN SLAVES AS
THREE-FIFTHS OF A HUMAN BEING FOR THE PURPOSES OF
REPRESENTATION AND APPORTIONMENT.
AND THAT GAVE THE SOUTH UNDUE LEGISLATIVE CONTROL UNTIL THE
CIVIL WAR.
>> Stephen: YOU DON'T LET FRANKLIN OFF THE HOOK FOR THAT.
>> OH, NO.
NO.
FRANKLIN-- THESE ARE TRAGIC COMPROMISES THAT HAVE TO BE
ADDRESSED.
AND WE DON'T LET HIM OFF THE HOOK FOR OWNING A HAND FULL OF
HOUSEHOLD SLAVES.
IT'S JUST AS BAD TO HAVE ONE AS IT IS TO H 100.
UNLIKE THE OTHER FOUNDING FATHERS, HE'S MOVES.
HE'S NOT STATIC.
HE FOUND A SCHOOL FOR BLACK KIDS, AND IS STARTLED TO
DISCOVER THAT THEY'RE AS APT AND PONE TO LEARNING AS WHITE KID.
AND THEN BY THE END OF HIS LIFE, HE'S LEADING AN ABOLITIONIST
SOCIETY AND PROPOSES IN THE NEW GOVERNMENT, THE THING THAT HE HE
HAS CREATED, THE FIRST RESOLUTION TO ABOLISH SLAVERY.
SENATE IGNORES IT.
HOUSE VOTES IT DOWN WITH GREAT OUTRAGE, BUT THERE IT IS.
WELL BEFORE THE ABOLITIONIST MOVEMENT SPREADS IN THE COUNTRY
IN THE 1800s, BENJAMIN FRANKLIN HAS GOTTEN ON THE RIDE
SIDE, AS THE SCHOLAR ERICA DUNBAR SAYS, OF THE QUESTION.
>> Stephen: WE HAVE TO TAKE A QUICK BREAK.
WHEN WE COME BACK I WILL ASK KEN AND MANDY WHAT LEARNING ABOUT
FRANKLIN TEACHES US ABOUT OURSELVES.
STICK AROUND.