Jeremy and Maryland hey how's it going
man
pretty good right and Janice is great
it's the dream team I'm happy to be here
I wanna give you it I wanted to give you
a quick update like that Tracy I'm sorry
Tracy some Tracy's here too and so when
you call us the dream team oh hey do you
guys are all amazing I've just this is
the one that I saw on YouTube probably
eight years ago that I was screaming at
my you know computer because it was like
I could argue my religion so much better
than this then I realized no I can't
awesome well what did you have for us I
want to give you a quick update first I
called you a couple of months ago asking
for advice you and Jenna eclair on and I
was asking for advice on reaching the
topic of my sister's theism or non
theism as it stood and I finally got a
chance to talk to her about a month ago
and it turns out that she she's been an
atheist for about a year and she's
actually wanted to talk to me about it
it's amazing yeah so thank you very much
for that advice
but I do have a topic discussed today
which was as it's written there toxicity
in the online skeptic community so I
know that she went to mythic on this
year and the experience was probably a
mixed bag so when you came back it was a
couple of months ago and I haven't had a
chance to call in since then but I
wanted to discuss a few you'd said that
you got a chance to meet Sargon and
along with Xuan had an armored sceptic
and you said you have a problem with
Sargon which I agree with you on there's
a lot of problems to have with Sargon
but the team have a problem with Arman
skeptic and Xuan had so my my my cool
with that is that I think Arman skeptic
and Shawn had represent kind of a really
divisive movement within what people are
calling the disc at the sphere like
YouTube skeptic community so I need I
need to clear this up I was talking
about so I tend to judge people based on
my interactions with them unlike and
this is a good cautionary tale as well
for everybody out there in Twitter land
stop assuming that everybody you
interact with has seen all the same
YouTube
clips that you have I have never watched
right until myth con I had never seen a
single minute of Sargon shoe on head or
armored skeptic I don't watch those
videos on YouTube you know what else I
don't listen to podcasts I've been on
stage with Sam Harris seven times I
don't think maybe it says this five six
whatever I don't listen to his podcast
I've heard snippets of his podcast
repairs time my wife started the godless
bitch's podcast the only time I listened
to that was when I was actually in the
room or editing it to post it I don't
listen to podcasts so when I say that I
had a problem with Sargon it was because
we had a conversation for about an hour
and a half the first part of it was
discussing philosophy it was fine it's
like you'd have with anybody else and
the second part of it was awful where he
decided to go down this road but road of
trying to claim that he was right
because he had more Twitter followers
and that's when I realized that he was
an [ __ ]
and he was drunk and it was pointless to
continue having a conversation with him
and then the next day at the convention
he said all kinds of awful garbage that
got massive tears from the deplorable
who were in attendance now my
interaction with Shu and armored we had
pleasant short conversations I didn't
have any any problems with them and what
they said on stage I understood I didn't
necessarily agree with all of it
but I got I understood where they were
coming from in what they were
complaining about and I'm sorry that I'm
open to seeing nuanced enough to where
I'm not going to just denounce anybody
and everybody I've been under fire not
only for two weeks now that's over now
but for not saying exactly what somebody
else wanted me to say I'm frame that
they wanted me to say it
well that's never gonna happen I'm not
going to pass your purity test it's not
yours the people I'm talking to and I
don't care it doesn't bother me at all
that I'm not passing here to test
because what I'm trying to do is make
the world a better place have better
conversations I'm gonna fail I'm gonna
end up associated or on stage with
somebody who somebody else thinks is
terrible and it doesn't matter whether
whether it's just me and Tracy on stage
somebody thinks I'm terrible somebody
thinks Tracy is terrible or if I'm on
stage with whoever so the only reason to
clear that up is it almost sounded like
Oh matt has a problem with Sargon but
he's okay with armored skeptic and all
I'm saying is I didn't have any
with them then and I understood where
they were coming from now they might
have the most awful content that I've
just never seen and never engaged with I
just don't know sure I I certainly
wouldn't expect you to hate somebody
after one conversation or hate them at
all I don't that's happening cuz they're
bad that was an easy one oh it it seemed
it's even easier once you watch one of
his videos but I I just think that there
is there's a difficulty these days and
referring to yourself as a skeptic
online now I try and be very open about
you know what I believe and it's the
difficulty becomes that there is there's
a fair there's a decently large movement
and I'm sure you you can probably attest
for how large it is because you had
whole crowds cheering for Sargon
essentially yeah calling somebody too
ugly to rape on stage yeah and I I think
that and III bring up Armin skeptic and
chi'lan head cuz I know that you you've
interacted with them before so I didn't
want to bring up somebody that you would
you were completely unfamiliar with but
I think that they're in in their own way
a part of it essentially what's happened
online in the past couple of years is
that the word skeptic has become
synonymous with anti PC ante SJW anti
feminism ante you know science denial
but the science denial they're referring
to is not in any way current science and
it's not in any way good science I don't
I don't agree yeah I don't agree with
that either and what I would say is that
I think that there's a number of
self-proclaimed skeptics out there who
think that because they've rejected you
know Bigfoot and God and you know lots
of other conspiracy theories and stuff
that somehow they have a lock on the
truth whatever that is no matter what it
is and that they don't have to
continue to do the hard work to come to
the right conclusion for the right
reason and that the part that I was you
kind of suggested that skepticism has
become synonymous with these positions
and I don't even know that that's not
the case I think not not of any not any
traditional sense I said there's a lot
of online communities and I think
specifically on YouTube get out of them
yeah this is this is the thing and I'll
tell you this if this if this is
comforting at all on several the events
we did there were thirty five thirty six
hundred people in the audience and I
managed to get to talk to quite a few of
them afterwards most people have no idea
who these people are you just named
what's going on their view of this is
hey we're going out to listen to
so-and-so talk because there's a big
podcast or they go to the you know that
so it's like the online there's a
YouTube community
then there's the blog community then
there's the convention community then
there's the event community it's not
like there's one secular community or
one skeptic community or one atheist
community and what ends up happening is
some of the loudest voices if you're
hanging out in the the Twittersphere end
up being perceived as representative
just as when the news reports yet
another school shooting the perception
is that these things are increasing when
there's evidence to show that they are
decreasing but it's it doesn't matter
because one is too many and so we we
live in a world now where you're
constantly being fed through algorithms
and through who you've decided to follow
more information that supports your view
and what I've tried to do is get out
there and get in the thick of it and
find out as much as I can I'm not saying
my my sample sets even remotely perfect
what people think about all this and the
truth is most of the online drama and
fighting and the you know the red pill
blue pill insel blah blah blah blah blah
the overwhelming majority of people who
would consider themselves part of the
secular community know nothing about it
at all
hey I would agree with you that yes the
overwhelming majority probably would
would be completely outside of it I I
think my worry is more for people like
probably the more moderate voices on you
know within these communities though
you've got people on YouTube like cosmic
skeptic and rationality rules who are
I'm sure you I think you might have
heard of cosmic sceptic I think you
might guys might have talked before we
have we were gonna do a video together
which haven't got around to do it but I
just did a video with rationality rule
the other day so again the difficulties
that I'm I see there is that you've got
people who and this happened was
Thunderfoot back in the day to a certain
extent as well you've got people who may
fall on one side or the other of any
particular issue but sort of have to
placate to very I would say even
religious nonsense to maintain their
fandoms among the skeptic community
online and the rationality rules before
he does a takedown of Jordan Peterson's
definition of truth he has to placate to
Jordan Peterson just so his fans won't
tear him apart as he knows his fans
probably love Jordan Peterson I watched
that video kind of difficult it's one of
the the handful that I watched before he
and I work together or right after I
don't think that that's placating I
think that he is engaging in the sort of
honest conversation because I'm gonna
sit onstage with Jordan Peterson in a
couple weeks in Toronto and I think he's
incredibly intelligent there are many
things that we agree on and then there
are some things that we disagree on and
then there are some times where it
sounds like word soup is pouring out of
his mouth instead of anything rational I
mean they're people referring to him as
the Deepak Chopra of Christianity I'm
not going to sit down and generally what
is better in that situation if you if
you have a message you want to get to
cross I think the best thing is for me
to acknowledge where we agree to
acknowledge that we're both rational
intelligent individuals and we're both
going to make mistakes and then go after
the the point where we have some
disagreement if I walk out on stage and
go man is so awesome to be here with the
Deepak Chopra of Christianity what kind
of word salad you're gonna throw at us
today Jordan not only it's not that not
accurately
what I think of him on the whole but
it's absolutely poison for a
conversation so what I think Stephen did
you know I don't think that was
placating I think he was saying look I'm
not saying that this guy is an idiot or
that he's not knowledgeable I'm not
saying that we don't agree I'm saying
that when asked about truth his view of
truth is a bizarre redefinition that
almost nobody should recognize I would
agree but like it was in the specific
way words that he used
I would I would find it difficult maybe
this is just because of my own parish I
would find it difficult taking a taking
an objective look at the Petersons
arguments to refer to anything he says
as a staunch defense of biological facts
I maybe that's just my personal views
getting in the way but it's it's
difficult for me to hear that and think
are you actually looking at this in a
skeptical and rational view or you are
you hearing his words because you agree
with them or do you just think that your
fans won't like it if you start talking
[ __ ] about him well I can tell you this
I put videos up on patreon and that
means that the overwhelming majority of
the that's where my income comes from
and I've been doing it for 3 plus years
and not once have I ever tried to say
anything or try to avoid saying
something based on whether or not
somebody was going to donate again my my
entire mission is to tell you what I
think and why and to challenge what
other people believe and to do it as
honestly and fairly as possible and if
that means I get 20,000 patrons who are
donating money and I'm filthy rich
awesome and if it means I lose all of
them I'll find another way to make money
and I'll keep putting out the content
that I'm putting out I think that I
think it might be a mistake to start
suggesting motivations that oh I have to
say this about Jordan there are loose
fans yeah I think that kind of pandering
pretty well guarantees that you're gonna
become irrelevant it
least in I mean in our circles we're not
politicians so you know which is good
because yeah I wouldn't be elected to
anything I mean I I guess in response to
that well people are coming to your
patreon for you they they kind of know
what you're what you're about I mean
you've been you've been a very open and
vocal face among the the atheist and
skeptic and secular communities for a
very long time now but I mean they know
what they kind of know what they're
getting with it you I mean on YouTube
it's a little different because you've
got it you've got to build an audience
from similarities and when but evens on
a maze around anyway no no I mean the
thing about that though is that it the
fact that people kind of know what
they're getting with Matt doesn't stop
them from coming at him sometimes and
accusing him of being oh I see the
feminazi 'he's got to you you know the
sjw's or have taken over Matt you know
all kinds of I've been accused of
anything and everything I'm from both
sides yeah for both sides I mean I am
the only sjw mansplaining MRA jackass on
the planet evidently it's been fine you
may be you may be right that there's
part of that there but so we're running
on time as a bunch of callers what cause
we danced around it what is it you're
concerned about and do you have
something we can do about it I guess my
concern is that whether or not we should
really be focusing a little more on
calling out the more aggressively toxic
voices within the community because it
seems to me like you've got just a
couple of weeks ago there was a I guess
I may have made but about two months ago
now I was this guy and II wore Steve's
big and the G doesn't even call himself
a skeptic but he used within the Steptoe
sphere who broke the YouTube livestream
record by having a conversation with
Sargon and like several white
nationalists including Richard Spencer
we're essentially all they did with
circle-jerk each other about you know
why we should start at the state and
argue over the exact implementation of
it referring to it as a you know nuance
both sides conversation
they broke the record for viewership
they broke records for don't know
I mean I think they made something like
$100,000 that not under Nations alone
and it was the the it was essentially
very specifically white nationalist
referring to themselves as Nazis and I
think that's a very extreme version of
it but I think we're seeing similar
things within that community and I
wonder do you think that there is the
responsibility for the people trying to
look at push for positive it is some
positive skepticism it's got back to the
rhythm way more vocal about calling
these guys out how do you be more vocal
about calling them out first of all I
did not a hundred percent sure I don't
have a platform so I'm 100 well I didn't
even hear about this and I don't even
only person you named who I even know is
Carl yeah and and vaguely know him I
think one of the things is till it's
okay somebody broke a YouTube record do
we know what the impact of that was and
aren't there other voices out there
offering countering opinions I bet you
somebody has gone through that video and
fist it and basically gone line by line
and here's what's wrong and here's
what's wrong do we even know that it was
actually a record that was broken or did
they just issue a press release saying
no it was it was a record that was
broken okay after I mean the difficulty
I'm saying is they're also not above D
platforming people who are speaking
against them there's a couple of people
well nobody's do blacks are nobody is D
platforming more people than the far
left that's just a fact
nobody has been advocating for D
platforming more than people on the far
left that's that's accurate you're right
that's that's true but I think their
their idea of we should be flat platform
people is that we should harass the
website until they see it things our way
whereas these guys ideas the platforming
is we should you know spam flag tweets
we should you know callin accusations
about this guy being a pedophile I mean
there's a couple of people but some of
those things you can take some of those
things you can actually take action
about if somebody's calling in threats
and we've had people call the the venues
where people were going to be not
necessary
where I was you know they did this
against myth con myth gone had to get
extra insurance and security the I don't
I don't know that that is remotely a
good way to make your case in much the
same way that some of my friends are
advocates for punching Nazis and I am
vehemently opposed to it because they
think it's my strategically stupid and
also humanistically immoral and you have
to recognize that some of this is the
consequence of allowing people to
express their ideas because for every
person who thinks that well hopefully I
was gonna say for every person who
thinks Richard Spencer's terrible
there's somebody who thinks that I'm
terrible hopefully that's not quite the
case
but but the point is it you know as long
as we're talking about speech I don't
know what can be done other than
expressing opposition combating bad
speech with better speech making sure
that you know for example nobody
deserves a platform or deserves an
audience or has a right life I'm on
stage during the Q&A I'm offering some
of my time to that person to ask a
question and it's still my time I can
cut them off whenever I want I can have
them escorted from the building
those are options when we're here on the
TV show we could have a guest in I let's
imagine for a minute that something
overcame us and Jen and I decided to
have Carl come in here and talk at any
moment we can escort him out of the
building to thunderous applause and
we've done nothing wrong free speech
from the standpoint of the government to
make sure that we all have the right to
say things without consequences and to
be to be on public land to stand on the
steps the capital provided you do the
paperwork to reserve a time this is a
private show in our private building and
people need to realize that universities
even public universities have put
restrictions on things you can table in
this area you can preach in this area
and they get to do that but if there are
going to have a rule that says student
groups get to bring in they're invited
speakers
and the Young Conservatives decide that
they're going to bring in Milo and the
godless the secular Student Alliance
decides they're gonna bring in me if you
start setting up policies specifically
to shut down Milo you're probably shut
down in shutting me down as well and
others and so hey protests because
students at universities are the
customers and the university has to make
a decision what kind of reputation do we
want where is this going to cost us
money are people going to want to come
to our school there's lots of different
avenues that don't involve property
destruction that don't involve punching
people that don't involve calling in
inaccurate threats of oh you're going to
be in danger it actually happened to an
event here in Austin that I wasn't
actually a part of but I was a party to
where people started calling the venue
to say oh you're getting ready to have a
dangerous rapist on stage and that's not
necessarily the case I don't know I went
I went off on a sidetrack there but I I
get the frustration but I also see that
what's happening a lot in the community
is I got my bubble you got your bubble
and your bubble is pointing out all of
these things and my bubble is pointing
out all these things and I don't know
how we encourage people to get out of
their bubbles and I'm not saying that
bubbles are always bad I blocked half a
dozen people that I've known for years
on Facebook just in the last couple
weeks and I think that they deserved it
in the sense that I'm not creating a
bubble people who agree with me I'm
removing particular toxic elements that
I don't want to have to deal with on
Facebook but almost every single one of
those people that I blocked is somebody
that if they wanted to do a podcast
interview to discuss our differences I'd
be open to that I would sit down with
almost any one of them and say yep let's
hash this out we'll do an episode but
that doesn't mean I want it on my
Facebook page said you know and that's
all maths math censoring me or no I'm
not it's I don't know now this all
became about me instead of the issues
whoo let's move on well I mean I think I
think
exactly were you coming some job yeah I
just wanted to bring up something you
initially talked about you know the
label sceptic is kind of having baggage
now this isn't really new because for a
long time we've been treated to people
who call themselves skeptics and when
you dig into it a little bit you find
out their climate change deniers or
their 9/11 truthers or you know they're
flat earthers or Christians yeah the
yeah the Christians there any number of
other people that subscribe to some
pretty out-there beliefs so the word has
had a little problem with nailing down
exactly what the individual means it's
almost not quite as bad as someone
announcing that they're Christian and
you don't even know what that means or
because hey there's two or with the
atheist and so when someone says I'm a
skeptic it's one of those situations
where you really do have to ask them
what do you mean by that
yeah and you have to do it realizing
that even the most ardent advocates of
skepticism who attempt to apply it as
thoroughly as possible are going to be
wrong about stuff and there's gonna have
their special Martin Gardner primarily
identified as the father of modern
scientific skepticism believed in God
and the the best thing that I can say
about that is that Martin Gardner also
acknowledged that he wasn't being
skeptical about God it was just
something he preferred to believe it
worked for him he never claimed that
this was a result of his kepts ISM as a
matter of fact he pointed out that he
thought atheists had the better
arguments but this was just the you know
the one thing that he wasn't putting up
there for his skepticism which is about
as good as you can do as a skeptic is to
say yep I got this belief which I know
isn't supported by skepticism and that's
the best I can do is acknowledge it's
not I'm not being skeptical enough on
this issue okay but
I don't know that there's any any
answers other than maybe everybody
should delete Facebook and Twitter and I
don't know go out and do a real why
YouTube comments that I don't know well
I actually like to went out and talk to
people like person to person because
it's amazing the [ __ ] people don't say
when you're standing face to face with
them that they will say under their you
know account four or five to anonymous
Twitter thing yeah and also I think you
know I love the Internet it's you know
it's where religions go to die but in
its got massive appeal and there's loads
of information there's probably too much
information there's probably not enough
access to be able to to go through and
vet specific information and so you're
constantly at risk of going oh well Jenn
posted this so that's good enough I know
Jess she's not gonna post some garbage
Oh Matt post I've posted garbage every
one of us have I've shared and I'll tell
you what I really hate I used to love
the onion I can't stand it or any other
satire anymore because it's is it too
close to home well not only is it too
close to home but there's too many
people who are otherwise reasonable and
incredibly intelligent who are gonna
fall for it share it and because that
person is reasonable intelligent the
people on their list who may not be so
much are also gonna share it and I can't
count the number times I don't post that
much on Facebook and I don't comment
that much but I'd say probably 5% of
every post I've ever made or ever
comment I've ever made that wasn't about
like a twenty page drama thing has been
this is a satire article this is a
satire article because it's so easy to
believe and there was one that's
evidently real that I thought was satire
just yesterday which is that is it in
Pennsylvania where they're gonna arm
students and teachers with rocks oh yeah
how real is that is that real I don't
know oh god I didn't look into it too
much but it was from several news
sources that looked credible that
weren't satire but that's the other
thing is some of these credible news
sources have a satire section yeah
I should never be allowed we I mean
you've heard the latest controversy
right in California they're teaching
kids math using Arabic numerals oh my
goodness
Arabic America oh my gosh the Muslims
are gonna take over here for law yeah we
should be used in Roman numeral oh crap
that's Catholics anyway I'm gonna try
and get the similar calls before we get
done but I appreciate the time I
appreciate you guys thank you very much
Matt thank you very much dad you guys
have a great day thank you