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♪ >> STEPHEN: WELCOME BACK.
JOINING ME TONIGHT IS AN N.Y.U.
LAW PROFESSOR AND FORMER LEAD PROSECUTOR IN THE OFFICE OF
SPECIAL COUNSEL ROBERT MUELLER.
HE HAS JUST WRITTEN A BOOK ABOUT THE INVESTIGATION CALLED "WHERE
LAW ENDS."
PLEASE WELCOME, ANDREW WEISSMANN.
MR. WEISSMANN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.
>> NICE TO BE HERE.
>> Stephen: WELL, WHERE DOES THE LAW END?
( LAUGHTER ) >> OKAY, HOW MUCH TIME DO YOU
HAVE?
SO THAT TILE COMES FROM A JOHN LAW QUOTE, ENGLISH PHILOSOPHER.
>> Stephen: SURE.
BUT THE MAIN REASON FOR IT SEX PERSONSING WHAT I
EXPERIENCED FOR 22 MONTHS -- WHAT I EXPERIENCED FOR 22 MONTHS
INVESTIGATING THE PRESIDENT AND ATTORNEY GENERAL BARR.
>> Stephen: THIS IS ABWHERE THE LAW ENDS.
IS THE WHITE HOUSE ONE OF THEM?
>> THE WHITE HOUSE AND ATTORNEY GENERAL BARR PRESENTED A NUMBER
OF OBSTACLES TO OUR INVESTIGATION, ABSOLUTELY.
>> Stephen: A RECAP FOR THE PEOPLE WHO MAY NOT KNOW WHO YOU
ARE.
YOU WERE ONE TO HAVE THE LEAD PROSECUTORS FOR THE MUELLER
INVESTIGATION.
FOR ALMOST TWO YEARS WE HEARD MUELLER'S NAME JUST ABOUT EVERY
DAY.
NOT ALWAYS YOURS BUT SOMETIMES YOURS.
A COUPLE OF YEARS LATER, MUELLER, MUELLER, THE GUY WITH
THE RUSSIA THING.
RIGHT?
WHAT JOB W WERE YOU SUPPOSED TO DO.
>> ROD ROSENSTEIN APPOINTED ROBERT MUELLER AS SPECIAL
COUNSEL AND HE WAS SUPPOSED TO INVESTIGATE WHAT RUSSIA DID IN
TERMS OF INTERFERING WITH OUR ELECTION AND WHETHER THERE WAS
ANYBODY IN THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN WHO PARTICIPATED IN THAT AND
ALSO WHETHER THE PRESIDENT OBSTRUCTED JUSTICE.
>> Stephen: OKAY.
NOW, EARLY IN TE BOOK, YOU WRITE, QUOTE, AS PROUD AS I AM
OF THE WORK OUR TEAM DID, WE COULD HAVE DONE MORE.
WHAT MORE COULD YOU HAVE DONE, AND IF YOU COULD HAVE DONE IT,
WHY DIDN'T YOU DO IT?
>> TIMELY QUESTION BECAUSE WE ALL ARE READING THE "NEW YORK
TIMES" AND HEARING ABOUT FINISH NANCE -- ABOUT FINANCES OF THE
PRESIDENT, AND THAT'S AN AREA WHERE IT'S A LONG, COMPLICATED
STORY, BUT IT WIL -- BUT ULTIMAT WE DID NOT DO A FULL
INVESTIGATION OF THE PRESIDENT'S FINANCES AND THERE ARE A LOT OF
UNANSWERED QUESTIONS THERE.
>> Stephen: WHO DID HE OWE $420 MILLION TO?
WOULDN'T THAT HAVE BEEN HANDY, TO ASK THAT QUESTION?
>> THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION.
BUT HERE'S PARTLY THE REASON THERE WAS A DECISION NOT TO GO
THERE, AND THIS IS PRETTY TELLING, WHICH IS THE WHITE
HOUSE CALLED UP AND SAID ARE YOU LOOKING INTO THE FINANCES?
THAT'S A RED LINE.
AND THE DECISION THE SPECIAL COUNSEL HAD TO MADE EARLY IN THE
INVESTIGATION WAS DO YOU PUT THAT ASIDE FOR NOW AND PURSUE
THE INVESTIGATION INTO OTHER THINGS, WHICH WAS INCREDIBLY
SUCCESSFUL, OR DO YOU JUST RISK GETTING FIRED RIGHT AT THE
OUTSET?
>> Stephen: BUT, LISTEN, I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT HOW TO
RUN A CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION OR A NATIONAL SECURITY
INVESTIGATION, BUT IF A GUY IS ACCUSED OF MURDER AND SAYS, HEY,
DON'T LOOK IN THE CRAWL SPACE, THAT IS CROSSING A RED LINE,
DOESN'T THAT TELL YOU THAT THAT'S WHERE THE BODY IS BURIED?
>> SO HUGE RED FLAG, AND WHERE WE ARE RIGHT NOW IS YOU KNOW
FROM THE "NEW YORK TIMES" THAT THERE'S A HUGE AMOUNT OF
UNEXPLAINED DEBT, AND YOU KNOW THAT THE WHITE HOUSE HAS SAID I
DON'T WANT ANYONE INVESTIGATING IT.
AND YOU KNOW ONE MORE THING WHICH IS THEY'RE FIGHTING LIKE
CRAZY NOT TO TURN OVER ACCOUNTING RECORDS.
SO THIS SEEMS TO BE AS AN INVESTIGATOR, YOU KNOW, MY MY AN
ANTENNAE ARE UP.
>> Stephen: I ASSUME THEY MUST HAVE BEEN UP WHEN THEY SAID
THAT'S A RED LINE.
DID YOU GUYS BUTT HEADS OVER WHETHER YOU SHOULD, A, GO FOR
THE FINANCES AND, B, AS RESPECTABLY AS POSSIBLE HAUL THE
PRESIDENT IN BY THE SCRUFF OF THE NECK AND PUT HIS HAND ON A
LITTLE BLACK BOOK AND SAY DO YOU SWEAR TO TELL THE TRUTH?
>> ONE OF BOB MUELLER'S LINES IS WE'RE HERE TO DEFEND DEMOCRACY,
NOT TO PRACTICE IT.
HE WOULD HEAR FROM EVERYBODY BUT THEN HE MADE THE JUDGMENT CALLS
ABOUT WHAT TO DO.
>> Stephen: OH, OKAY.
S THE DEMOCRACY THAT THEY'RE NOT PRACTICING IS THAT THE
SPECIAL COUNSEL'S OFFICE IS NOT A DEBATING SOCIETY, HE ACTUALLY
JUST GETS TO MAKE THE DECISION AT THE END OF THE DAY.
>> EXACTLY.
>> Stephen: WAS IT ALL JUST IF WE PUSH TOO FAR HE'LL KILL THE
INVESTIGATION?
>> THERE WAS THAT.
THAT WAS A PIECE OF IT.
THERE WAS A CONCERN -- I THINK THAT'S PROBABLY THE MAIN PIECE
OF IT IS DOING THAT, AND THEN THERE'S A CONCERN OF NO GETTING
INTO -- NOT GETTING INTO A PROTRACTED LEGAL FIGHT THAT
COULD TAKE YEARS BECAUSE, AS YOU'VE SEEN, THE PRESIDENT IS
QUITE LITIGIOUS.
>> Stephen: RIGHT.
IN RETROSPECT, HOW MUCH DID THAT TAKE THE TEETH OUT OF THE
INVESTIGATION IF, AS YOU GOT CLOSER TO THINGS THAT YOU
THOUGHT PERHAPS HAD SOME INFORMATION THAT YOU NEEDED, YOU
HAD TO BACK AWAY BECAUSE THE GUY YOU WERE INVESTIGATING COULD
STOP YOU FROM DOING SO?
IT JUST SEEMS LIKE AN ODD INVESTIGATION, THOUGH, DOESN'T
GET TO FOLLOW THE FACTS.
>> SO I TOTALLY AGREE.
TWO THINGS THAT ARE REALLY WORTH NOTING THAT MAKE THIS SO
DIFFERENT THAN WHEN I INVESTIGATED ENRON OR EVEN
ORGANIZED CRIME WHICH IS THAT THE PERSON THAT WE WERE
INVESTIGATING HAD THE POWER TO FIRE US, AND THEY ALSO HAVE THE
POWER TO PARDON PEOPLE, MEANING THAT IT WAS VERY HARD TO GET
PEOPLE TO COOPERATE BECAUSE HE COULD JUST DANGLE A PARDON THAT
WOULD DETER THEM.
BUT THE REASON I WROTE THE BOOK IS TO SORT OF LAY OUT THE ISSUES
AND ALSO THE DISAGREEMENTS INTERNALLY AS TO WHAT WE DID SO
THAT PEOPLE WOULD HAVE A SORT OF CANDID DISCUSSION ABOUT THE
INVESTIGATION AND ALSO THINK ABOUT IS THIS THE WAY WE WANT
THINGS TO WORK IN THE FUTURE.
>> Stephen: NOW, BOB MUELLER HAS RECENTLY PUSHED BACK NOT
VIOLENTLY, BUT HE HAS SAID -- I DON'T THINK HE CALLED YOU UP BY
NAME, BUT I THINK HE SAID THAT YOU WERE, QUOTE -- HMM, HMM,
HMM, HMM, HMM -- INCOMPLETE INFORMATION?
IS THAT WHAT HE DESCRIBED AS INCOMPLETE INFORMATION?
>> YEAH.
>> Stephen: DO YOU KNOW WHAT HE'S TALKING ABOUT?
WHAT YOU PERHAPS WERE NOT PRIVY TO?
>> WELL, OBVIOUSLY, IF IT'S SOMETHING I DON'T KNOW, BY
DEFINITION, I CAN'T SAY WHAT IT IS THAT I DON'T KNOW.
BUT IT'S CERTAINLY THE CASE THAT I CAN'T SAY THAT I KNOW
EVERYTHING.
BUT, YOU KNOW, I TRIED TO GIVE A TRUTHFUL, CANDID RECITATION OF
THE FACTS I DID KNOW.
>> Stephen: WHEN WE COME BACK, ANDREW WEISSMANN AND HIS TEAM'S
REACTION TO BILL BARR'S FOUR-PAGE SUMMARY OF THEIR
REPORT.
WE'LL BE RIGHT BACK.
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