Department of justice.
The likelihood you win that case is low.
The risk of losing that case is high.
I wouldn't pursue it if I were.
>> People are telling you what they thought and
they're telling you that they were sure.
>> Yeah but the president gonna say my advisers told me I thought I won.
That wasn't a conspiracy.
>> I know but none of his advisors told him that he won.
Not one of his advisors told him he won.
>> Don you've got to go not to the court of public opinion but to the court of law.
>> No no no no no no no.
Hold on.
You're not hearing what I'm saying.
>> I'm hearing.
Every single person who testified his advisors I told him and
I'm not saying you're wrong.
I'm saying on this one every advisor, on this one you're wrong.
Every single advisor told him that he lost.
[CROSSTALK].
The only people who know people who told him
that was Rudy Giuliani and the voting box people.
>> Don't you think the defense can find witnesses who said the president thought
that he won?
Come on Don the defense is gonna find people who said the president believed he
was right.
How can this be a conspiracy if the president said he was trying to
defend democracy?
>> Okay so at the end of the day what Phil Mudd thinks about the DOJ or Trump or
whatever doesn't necessarily matter.
Especially considering that at an earlier point in his discussion with Don Lemon.
He said that he was thus far not convinced that Trump was willing to see
violence if that's what took him to stay in office when that's.
It's been a year and a half of not only the fact that he sent the people to riot
but also was openly talking about the potential death of Mike Pence.
So let's dispense with that.
But I think it's an interesting debate though about is this something
you could actually prove.
If the point that we've reached in America is that whether
Trump can potentially go to jail or not is based on whether people
believe what is being called the George Costanza defense.
That it's not a lie if you believe it, basically that's where Trump's at.
So that if that's the set if that's where we're at that is
a difficult thing to prove.
That said as Don Lemon points out, many of his advisers have come forward and
said that they were very clear to him that he had not actually won.
At a certain point Brett how much should you have to or
do you have to prove that a person is sort of being willfully ignorant?
And is this worth picking up considering that it might be difficult to actually
prove and if he were really fast.
And if they were to pick it up and they didn't prove it and he was exonerated that
could end up making him look better than if you didn't pursue it at all.
>> Yes, I agree with that last part.
You could end up doing what, giving them the opportunity.
Well basically there used to be the situation where
if someone was impeached that was a bad thing for them.
Yeah.
And that's not the case anymore because an end,
the reason that that's not a bad thing anymore hinges.
And that they still go through with it hinges on
the fact that Don Lemon is like most people.
Most people are like here a prosecutor what seems like a prosecution
go on during the hearings here a complete case front to back and
say what a lot of us have been saying for years.
And a lot of moderates as well have been saying this guy did something illegal,
right?
But his mud points out, no, that's not necessarily what you can get him on what I
think we should hope for is there was a moment.
Where knowingly Donald Trump lied to the American public
about what Mike Pence's actual position on the election was.
So he knowingly did libel or whatever.
He imputed the character of Mike Pence.
So I'm hoping we can have some kind of Johnny Depp Amber heard style
civil suit about defamation of characterhere Donald Trump
misrepresented Mike Pence's position that.
>> Let's go to that really fast because you mentioned that.
So let's jump too graphic too, Greg Jacob who was legal counsel for
the former vice president.
Said that Pence's team was quote shocked and disappointed that Trump put out
a categorically untrue statement the day before the insurrection.
Saying that the president vice president were in total agreement that Pence had
the power to overturn the election.
And really fast on that like Phil Mudd can say that maybe
they can find somebody who can come in and say that they thought that Trump had won.
So maybe some advisers were saying he lost, some were saying that he won.
But he definitely knew that Pence had said that Pence can't overturn the election and
he lied about it and
he continued to advocate for it in the speech that sent people to the capital.
That might be harder to weasel out of.
>> The reason for the hearing is hope sadly,
it's hope that just telling the American people
what happened will inspire in enough decent human Americans.
It will inspire them to say,
I think Donald Trump should never be anywhere close to the White House and
when it comes time to vote for that, that's where it will play out.
And that's the only thing that any reasonable person should be holding out
hope for realistically.
Yeah, that's why this is happening, that's why it's playing out the way it is,
how it is, and when it is and in the modes that it's playing out in.
But there's definitely like one massive apparatus that's keeping anyone from
hearing about it and talking trash about it.
But if you watch those hearings in their entirety,
which you can do when they're happening, we're streaming specials every time
a hearing happens and reacting to it on the spot.
For a fact that Donald Trump did something that is hateful and
hostile toward the concept of America.
And all the people that are kind of putting around and
trying to get to that point where they're like, I'm not quite sure.
I think I should advocate for anything other than
holding together the institution of democracy in America.
They're making a point, but they're not making the point.
The most important thing right now is that Donald Trump is
the single biggest threat to America because he just proved and
as we're hearing in great detail with photos, John's gonna show you.
He saw, he got to the point where every other person in the history of
America who's lost those elections has said I lost, this is America.
We peacefully transfer power, every reasonable person to that.
But Donald Trump literally said, wouldn't it be cool if we went full coup.
>> Yeah.
>> That's the point.
The only point.
>> I mean, I wanna show you one image.
This is pretty crazy.
I saw this going around yesterday, this is back on graphic one,
apologies the director.
This is Mike Pence almost as if it was staged holding
up a phone that is him watching in real time.
The video that Trump finally begrudgingly posted where
he told the people who were at that moment trying to murder
Mike Pence that I love you, you're very special people.
And Mike Pence at this point had already declined to leave with secret service.
And it's incredibly clear why apparently there's the idea that he was
worried that if he left that he wasn't sure what would happen to the process.
And maybe they would find some way to overturn it or
that he didn't know the agents who are gonna be taking him away.
The entire thing is scary.
That is the state that the vice president was in.
And I know that in some ways Mike Pence has been forced to move past this.
He clearly doesn't like Trump anymore, but anyone else would be making a way bigger
deal of the fact that the guy used to work for
was perfectly fine with a mob murdering you.
But that image is so crazy because at that moment he had no idea what was
gonna happen to him or to his country.
And Trump was trying to maintain the affections of his murderous mob,
that was his priority.
And I wanna go to just a couple of numbers because we can debate
how likely the case to get Trump would be to actually work.
In terms of what people think about it according to research
from Navigator Research, 54% of respondents backed the idea
of the DOJ indicting Trump over the insurrection, 37% opposed it.
And obviously you're not gonna be surprised to find out their big partisan
differences with nearly with 71% of Republicans opposed, 21% support the idea.
20 more than 1/5 of Republicans want Trump to be.
Now maybe some of them think it would be so that he could clear his name or
something, I don't know.
But that's a high number, 86% of Democrats,
47% of Independents also want him to be indicted.
So I mean, it would be difficult honestly but the stakes are also incredibly high.
The bread, I don't know.
>> I mean, I don't know what the next section of this is, but just very.
>> Moving on the journey spinning a little bit but give me your thoughts about this.
>> So this is all based on the concept that the right wing
takes a very real concern that any reasonable person could have.
This is their move right one of the many, but they take a real concern,
a reasonable person could have and start just hammering that idea home.
That is terrible what's happening in this very specific instance.
But then over time they use the same term and broaden its definition.
So it applies to everything.
In this specific situation it's the news media and
American institutions like the Congress.
So essentially what they do is they say, listen most people want this kind of
policy, but congress never makes it happen.
You hate it.
They brought in that definition to mean that every American institution
of democracy is wrong and broken and rigged against you.
In doing so, there is an admission from Trump's own legal team that
he knows he would lose in the Supreme Court 9 to nothing if he tried to do this.
But he very brazenly says,
wouldn't it be cool if we just let's take a leap of faith and believe that
we've broadened the definition of America's institutions are broken.
To include something that provably by all accounts of all reasonable people
is not broken and that's the leap of faith they were gonna take.
But sadly, that leap of faith is into an abyss of anarchy,
lawlessness, and the absolute dissolution of what America should be, period.
They did that.
And the other part was the news media where they're like,
well we'll just say that fake news, everything's fake news and
they lump that and it's rigged and America's broken into it.
But they say they wanna make America great again, but
they're just gonna unmake America, that's what it is, period.
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