Please welcome Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.
(cheering and applause)
Thank you.
Welcome to the show.
Thank you very much, and that's a great reception.
(groans) I feel like I could stand for the interview
and we'd be the same height.
Um, you are such a Renaissance man,
uh, author, Hall of Famer, athlete,
Presidential Medal of Freedom winner.
It's almost like NBA all-time leading scorer
is number six on your resume.
You have lived quite an accomplished life.
Are-are you just trying to win LinkedIn?
Is that what you're doing?
No. Uh, you know, I'm just, uh, I go through life,
and I-I try to find interesting and meaningful things to do.
Um, you know, you-you go through your whole life
and you have a career that's over when you're 42.
-I'm 70 now, you know. -Right.
What do you do with the rest of your life?
So, uh, I'm glad I figured out how to write a few books,
and say a few things that, uh, people might want to hear,
and, uh, something that we could share.
You-you definitely say a few things that people want to hear.
I mean, this-this book is, is, uh, is a beautiful book
because it's you telling the story of your life.
But what I like about it is you-you've set it out
for younger readers, you know.
So anyone from the age of ten up can read it.
And you truly have lived one of the more fascinating lives
I have ever read about.
Um, everyone knows you from the world of sports,
but a lot of people don't know what it was like
to be a sportsman during your time.
You talk in the book about having to change,
or want-- choosing to change your name
to Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.
Why was that important for you during the time that you did it?
Uh, it was very important because, uh, black Americans
had a whole situation imposed upon them.
Uh, people were brought here from Africa,
their names were changed, and they were forced
i-into some very terrible, uh,
terrible depriv-- deprived circumstances.
Slavery was not-not a great experience,
and, uh, we came out of it very damaged.
And in order to repair, uh, we have to reassert our identities.
So, uh, the fact that, uh, I-I believed in Christianity
and monotheism my whole life,
I-I decided I wanted to change my name to something
that had to do with, uh, the type of monotheism
that they practice in Africa to some degree.
And, uh, I became interested in Islam,
and, uh, became Muslim.
But, uh, that-that was my thought process.
I-It wasn't me taking a stance
against, uh, America,
-but it was a-a position of for myself, -Right.
for my own identity that-that I wanted to assume,
not something that was imposed on me.
It's interesting that you say not something against America
but something for yourself,
because it feels like that's a conversation
that we're experiencing once again with Colin Kaepernick.
-An athlete... -It's the same conversation.
It's an athlete in the spotlight saying,
"This is something that I'm trying to say for myself
and for my people and what we're experiencing."
And people are hearing it as, "No, this is against America."
When you said these things,
and when you stood up for black Americans,
was it similar to what people say today
about NFL athletes taking the knee?
I-It was the same exact thing.
They wanted to change the subject
because they didn't like to talk about the fact
that, uh, too many black Americans end up dead
for no good reason at the hands of police.
-Right. -And, uh, they didn't want to talk about that issue
because it's troubling.
Uh, it means that there's something wrong with our...
-with some of our police forces, -Mm-hmm.
the way they're trained, etcetera.
So, uh, most people don't want to talk about that.
That's a very, uh, intense
and, uh, difficult problem to solve.
But it's something we have to solve.
As a black American, we want it solved now
because it's our kids that are being shot down in the street.
And, um, that's very troublesome,
and-and we want to change that.
And, uh, we got to keep fighting
until people understand that
and-and help us change it in a positive way.
And you-you truly are trying to do it in a positive way.
You know, you inspire people. You speak to them.
You write columns about this.
There are still people who are vehemently opposed
-to some of the things that you say. -Yeah.
Like, have you-have you found that there's been a change?
Have you found a way to break through
to people in the time that...
I mean, because you've been doing this
for a very long time, as you said.
Your career ended, and then you go,
"Where do you go from there?"
Have you found any breakthrough in any way?
I-I found a lot of breakthroughs.
Look at, uh... President Obama could not have been elected
-without that type of breakthrough. -Right.
Without people being able to see him for his character
and his-his positive attributes,
uh, and-and not being, uh, upset
about the color of his skin or that his, uh...
-his ancestry goes back to Africa. -Right.
That-that should not be an issue.
It should be the content of his character
and what he wants to do for America.
Uh, so, you know, we-we get that mentality
and we get that idea out to people,
um, maybe-maybe they can see
that black Americans are actually their fellow citizens,
-and we want the same thing that they want. -Right.
You-You've lived through...
many of the most painful periods
in American history for black Americans--
and for Americans, I would argue.
-Mm-hmm. -I didn't know this about you,
but when you were ten years old,
Emmett Till was ten years old.
-He was 13. -He was 13.
-Yes. -So when you were a young boy,
-Emmett Till was basically around the same age. -Right.
You were experiencing America
in a similar way that he was.
You-you get older, and you got an opportunity.
You had an opportunity to, uh...
interview Martin Luther King.
-Yes. -I believe it was for a journalist experience.
And... and then you were around
when Martin Luther King was assassinated.
-Yes, I was. -How do you...
prevent yourself from only being angry,
from only seeing the world as against you
when you've experienced so many traumas as an African American?
Well, we also have to look at the-the good side of things.
Uh, and a whole lot of good things have happened:
the Voting Rights Act, uh, the Civil Rights Act,
uh, the fact that people are starting to understand
how corrosive and horrible, uh,
white supremacy can be
-on people who are not white. -Right.
Um, they don't get it all the time.
They think, uh, everything is fine for everybody.
Uh, when we can point out
in, uh, very valid and, uh, explicit ways
how that's not working and, uh, we have to make this
a democracy that works for everyone, um, people get that.
-Because everybody wants to be treated fairly. -Right.
And, uh, you know, black Americans are no different.
And, um, if-if white Americans can, uh, see a way
to understand that,
we're-we're gonna make a lot of progress
in-in a short period of time.
There-there is one white American who may struggle
-with some of these concepts, and... -(laughter)
It's-it's interesting,
-because-because you-you wrote, um, an op-ed, -Yeah.
uh, in and around Donald Trump,
comparing him to Bernie Sanders,
explaining the differences and trying to show
how different their world views were.
And, uh, the president then wrote you a personal letter
on your own column.
I think we have... we have the picture here, what he wrote.
-I think... Yeah. -Yeah, there it is.
NOAH: It reads there. It, uh... "Dear Kareem,
"Now I know why the press always treated you so badly.
"They couldn't stand you. The fact is that you don't have
"a clue about life and what has to be done
"to make America great again.
-Best wishes, Donald Trump." -(audience groaning)
What do you do with a personal note like that
from the president? Do-do you frame it or do you burn it?
Uh... actually, that, uh...
when I got that, I-I crumpled it up in a ball
and I skyhooked it into a waste basket...
(cheering and applause)
Oh...
It's-it's very difficult dealing with somebody
that you shouldn't have to take seriously.
-But, um, unfortunately, -Right.
-we're stuck, you know? So here we are. -Right.
Um, sportsmen celebrities,
people in positions of power and politics.
When you look at your world as a sportsman,
many people said to you at the time, they said,
"You are an athlete. I support you because of how you play.
"Don't-don't say these things,
"because it alienates me from you.
Why don't you just play the game?"
How did you ever respond to people
who had that as their rhetoric?
Well, you know, I-I think that's great.
You know, I've run into lots of people
that had bet on the Lakers and won a lot of money
and they're very happy to see me for that reason.
Uh, but they... sometimes they don't want me to remind them
that, uh, you know, innocent kids get-get shot down
-in the street for no good reason. -Right.
That's-that's two difficult things to-to balance.
But that's what we are dealing with here in America,
and we have to find some way to talk about, uh, one
while we enjoy the other.
Because, uh, you know, if-if things don't change,
it's gonna be just more misery for-for people of color,
and, uh, we've-we've got to stop that.
I've noticed a few times, even in this conversation,
and I feel it in the book, as well--
you have a very nuanced view of the world.
You see the truths, but at the same time,
you appreciate the progress.
You feel the pain, but there are moments of pleasure
that you... that you experience, and you share.
Is this your philosophy on life?
Is this how you see the world?
Is that a conscious decision you've made?
Yeah, it is, because, uh, we...
I can't give in to pessimism, you know?
I have to, uh, think that, uh, this is America,
and we do things differently here,
and we can get things done here.
And, uh...
the fact that my fellow Americans will listen to me
and maybe be guided by some of the things that I say--
I-I find that very reassuring.
It might not happen right away, but, uh, they'll listen,
and, uh, once the dialogue starts,
that's how change begins.
You are going to be engaging in the dialogue.
I believe that you're going to be going on a tour,
which is a live show, basically speaking
about what's in the book
and engaging with everyday Americans.
Why was that important to you?
You could write the book and just have people read it.
Why do you want to go around America
talking to the people who you'd like to read the book?
Well, I'd like to explain exactly what happened.
In the book, I talk about my mentors
and what I learned from them.
And it wasn't always positive things.
Sometimes people that I admired did things
-that, uh, made me step back a little bit. -Right.
But, uh, I learned how to make choices,
and I learned how to listen,
and, uh, sift through different information
that was given to me by people who were trying to mentor me,
and decide, you know,
what I should deal with and what I shouldn't, you know?
So it's a cautionary tale.
Uh, you know, it's very easy to take bad advice
and go off... off track
and end up where your life is a mess.
-Right. -And I don't want that to happen to kids,
so that's why I wrote this book.
And any kids that are out there that want to check it out--
becomingkareem.com-- you can see it,
and, uh, find out...
We'll be touring the United States.
We're gonna do a number of cities
and-and talk about some of the issues
and things that happened in the book.
If you have any advice for sportsmen
that are out there today,
sports people who are saying, "Kareem, I have views.
"I want to share these views, but I'm afraid.
"I'm afraid of being cut off.
"I'm afraid of not getting money.
"I'm afraid of being blackballed
out of the sports field that I want to be in,"--
what would your advice be to them?
I would have to tell them that they have to have the courage
to stand up for something that is important to them.
Um, yeah, you can, avoid having to make that tough choice,
but at a certain point, there's no place to hide.
You either have to stand up for what's right,
or go along with the program
that, uh... that diminishes you.
And, uh, as a black American,
I can't along with a program that diminishes me.
I-I have to stand up for what's right,
so, uh, I'm encouraging kids and all young people
that read this to stand up for what they believe in
and, uh, what they see, uh, that they can do
-to make America a better place. -You know what?
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say,
I think the president's wrong.
I think you're gonna make a good man of yourself.
-I, uh... -Well, thank you. -(laughter)
-I think you have a bright future ahead of you. -Thank you.
Thank you so much for being on the show.
Becoming Kareem is available now.
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, everybody.