life in lockdown these deserted London
streets tell a story repeated across the
world as almost half the planet is now
living inside in just a matter of weeks
our life has changed beyond recognition
and yet every day the number of dead
keeps climbing alarmingly so in this
Channel 4 News special we go beyond the
news and we bring in global expertise to
answer the following question when are
we going to flatten that curve could we
become the next Italy Spain or even
America in every house on every street
and every neighborhood in this country
people are asking the same questions
when will this end how can this end and
if and when it does end what will the
world look like in other words what next
[Music]
it's barely been two weeks since the
beginning of the lockdown and it already
feels like an eternity which we're all
having to get used to including my
family in this house I have four kids at
home two of them have had their a-levels
and GCSE he's cancelled
and they keep asking me the same
question every day when is the lockdown
going to end I simply don't know I don't
think anyone knows and meanwhile the
conversation around the dinner table is
like no other conversation that we ever
used to have how many ventilators are
there how many tests are there when are
we going to reach the peak this is a new
vocabulary for a completely new reality
so here's the question how is our
government doing a few weeks ago we were
all living lies we probably took for
granted a day at the races dinner out a
quick pint exercise all parts of normal
British lines and whilst the coronavirus
had shut down much of Europe Britain was
arguing over an apparent policy no other
country was adopting the only way to
stop this epidemic is indeed to achieve
herd immunity okay
Thomas fo you are shaking your head this
is crazy
so we're saying we want to kill 200,000
people in the UK days later the Prime
Minister asks us to do this now is the
time for everyone to stop non-essential
contact with others
not everyone understands the message
then the ask quickly becomes an order
stay at home protect our NHS and save
lives lockdown is now our new normal
only essential shopping or travel is
allowed
Britain's Way of life on hold and of
course there's a sort of grim
international competition going on how
we doing compared to other countries are
we testing more or not and why not how
many deaths do we have compared to
others
once upon a time I'm talking about mid
March here we thought we were four weeks
behind Italy we were wrong
Italy's national lockdown happened on
the 9th of March ours came two weeks
later but it virtually the same point in
the epidemic since then our rate of new
cases has slowed to a daily increase of
around 22% in larger European countries
cases are starting to level out while in
the United States the daily increase is
almost 33% the death rates however tell
a mixed story Italy peak before any
other European country and now has
almost 14,000 deaths an average of 234
per million the UK has 38,000 cases and
just over 3600 deaths that's an average
of 53 per million and climbing Germany
by comparison has more than double our
cases but about a third of the deaths
that's an average of just 13 per million
so why is Germany faring so much better
than others it started this crisis with
around 30 critical care beds per 100,000
patients Italy just about coped with 12
per 100,000 the UK had just seven and it
was that fact coupled with the explosion
of cases in Italy that made the
government realize that without a full
lockdown
up to quarter of a million Britons could
die I can announce that this weekend the
first of thousands of new ventilator
devices will roll off the production
line and be delivered to the NHS next
week we now have around 8,000
ventilators and we're tolls more are on
the way
but to slow Kovan 19 spread you need
something else first first test the
World Health Organization is urging all
countries to ramp up its testing to
identify and isolate new cases but the
UK is only testing around 50,000 people
a week while in Germany it's being
ramped up to half a million a week
the US has now tested over a million in
total the previous inaction leaves it in
the epicenter of this crisis this is
going to be a very painful very very
painful two weeks it now has more cases
than any other country Kovach 19 seems
to pay even less attention to politics
than it does to borders we're all at the
mercy of pure arithmetic what then is
the perfect combination to ensure as
little deaths as possible and how much
longer must we all live in lockdown well
joining me now are three professors of
global health David Heyman is
distinguished fellow at Chatham House he
led the World Health Organization's
response to SARS and has been advising
them on coronavirus John Edmonds is
professor of epidemiology at the London
School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine
he works on the mapping of infectious
diseases and is currently advising the
government here and Debbie srida as
chair in global health at Edinburgh
University she has worked with a number
of UN and government agencies in
developing countries John Edmunds if I
could start with you if I may we had a
similar program three weeks ago which
you are on and you said at the time that
actually a you know let's listen to what
the scientists are saying but you know
we don't need a full government locked
down yet we don't need to lock down the
country and then a few days later the
government decided to do just that do
you think that the government squandered
some precious time that the Chinese had
bought us with their own lockdown so I
think from the purely epidemiological
point of view the best thing for us to
do would have been to go into lockdown
in January and then stay in lockdown
until we get a vaccine which might be a
year from now or longer but that's not
the best thing to do for the for the
country you know we've been in lockdown
now for about ten days and it's really
starting to drag I think on many people
and so you do have to time these sorts
of interventions properly because you
have to try and keep people with you and
that is what
say you know interview a few weeks ago
and I still maintain it I think you said
on Wednesday that we're beginning to see
this lockdown having a positive effect
can you tell us more about that yes it
looks like it and we can compare how
many contacts people make now are making
now with how many contacts they normally
would make if there wasn't an epidemic
and from that we can infer what the
reproduction number is likely to be so
this reproduction number is the average
number of secondary cases each case
generates and we think it's now below
one which means that the epidemic should
start to peak so you won't see it until
probably next week you'll start to see
it an effect so it's one we think you'll
start to see these these data starting
to peak that doesn't mean the epidemic
is over though it just means that we've
got we've stopped it from growing okay
let's bring in Debby a 3d TV and are we
now on the right track that the curve is
beginning to flatten but do you agree
with that assessment well I think I mean
what we are hopefully seeing is that
people are complying with the physical
deadening measures so what you would
expect to see is of course a slowdown in
transmission and staying within NHS
capacity the worry is that actually we
do want to get out of this kind of
lockdown situation it's not good for
society it's not good for the economy to
be in the situation we're in and so what
happens when we release the lockdown and
we go back to somewhat semi normality is
it gonna mean that the spread increases
again and I worry that we'll be stuck in
an endless cycle of lockdown and release
which is basically going to be dictated
by how NHS capacity looks what will that
kind of lockdown on-again-off-again do
to our society I mean this tears it the
social fabric because I mean the thing I
think about is every day and lockdown
we're having kids who are not in school
not getting an education
you're widening inequality so you're
having children falling into poverty
we're already seeing a steep rise and
the demand on food banks for things like
bread and milk and basic necessities
you're seeing you know arise and you
know calls for domestic abuse and women
needing support child abuse I mean
there's all kinds of nonce
John Edmunds I wondered to what extent
the government is thinking that there
comes a point when the benefits of this
lockdown of these really quite stringent
social measures are going to be
outweighed by the negative effects on
our society that Debbie has just
outlined well I think they're trying to
monitor that all at the time so there is
a you know balance that needs to be
struck here between the lockdown which
is the best thing epidemiologically for
this virus and everything else in
society and this sort of very long
period of perhaps intermittent lockdowns
that's exactly what's going to happen
that's what we're in where maybe 5%
through this epidemic so far so we've
got a very very long way to go David
Heyman you've got a vast amount of
experience when it comes to dealing with
epidemics like SARS and Ebola looking
for then what's next in all this do you
think well the next is a good risk
assessment by the government which
they'll be doing and they now have the
ability to do antibody testing in
communities to determine what really has
been the spread of this virus during the
preceding months information that John
for example needs and his modeling
activities to better understand what is
really going on this is a new organism
we don't know its destiny we don't even
understand completely its
transmissibility one country that's been
mentioned an awful lot is South Korea
this is a democracy a very proud
democracy it's also very affluent
society they've had they had a very
large number of infections at the
beginning but a relatively small number
of deaths what have they done that
others haven't well South Korea recently
maybe three or four years ago as you'll
remember had a major outbreak of MERS
coronavirus of over 300 people infected
from this one person who entered they
had a lesson they learned that lesson
and they prepared for the next one
finally to all three of a very brief
question with hopefully a brief answer
where do you think we will be by the end
of the summer
David Heyman I don't know where we'll be
and I think it would be false to say we
do know
what I do know though is that other
respiratory infections decrease in
transmissibility in the summer months
and hopefully this infection will do the
same Jo Edmonds I think we can't say
with any accuracy where we'll be at the
end of the summer I don't think that the
summer holiday that warm weather is
likely to reduce the transmission of
this virus it's spreading very
effectively in lots of warm countries
around the world right now so I don't
think that's going to be our salvation
and Debbie 3da finally to you well I'm
gonna give an optimistic scenario that
we actually hopefully have an antiviral
we have a lot of repurposing drug trials
and so actually we can have a better
treatment to offer individuals who are
very ill wonderful thank you very much
for a bit of optimism there Debbie
Street our John Edmonds and David
Harewood thank you to all three of you a
note of optimism there but there could
be months of struggle first no more so
than in America fast becoming the
epicenter of the outbreak and where
Donald Trump described himself as a
wartime president vowing total victory
over the virus well one man who knows
all about America going to war is
retired four-star General Stanley
McChrystal who served as commander of US
and NATO forces in Afghanistan
he's now advising the city of Boston in
its response to the outbreak
let me start off with a kind of poignant
comparison for you does this remind you
at all this crisis of the kind of wars
that you've been dealing with in the
past well in many ways it does on
several levels first we're dealing with
an amorphous viral-like enemy that seems
to be everywhere it's not but it seems
that way and it's hard to get your arms
around it and it's frightening and the
second things is it takes a whole of
nation approach to combat this just like
insurgency or terrorism you don't find
it with a few military people you fight
it with an effort that's diplomacy
economics social and then apart military
so it's really gonna be a whole love
nation in fact I would argue a whole of
global approach we just heard from a
bunch of scientists that this lockdown
could last for a very long time albeit
in slightly different versions is the
real war that we're fighting here one
with our own expectations and how tough
is that the lockdown or versions of
social distancing as they call it is the
only thing ultimately that will flatten
the curve and give us a better outcome
and yet that takes every single
individual to make a conscious effort
every single day in some ways that's
actually good for the nation because I
studied the Montgomery bus boycott in
the 1950s part of the American civil
rights movement what they found was
strongest was when they asked people
involved to do something every day that
reinforced their support for the cause I
think the worst thing we could do is
tell people go about your lives don't
worry about it we'll let the health care
professionals deal with it this gives us
a sense that not only is it affecting us
but we can all do something for it it's
not monumental but social distancing is
a sacrifice you know you were generally
in Iraq and in Afghanistan these were
societies that you know America and you
know the West wanted to reshape to some
extent in their own image and it didn't
work so well to what extent do you think
this particular war against the virus
will reshape our societies and what will
we look like at the end of it I think
this is just going to reach
more than we think it is I know in the
work realm now that people in the United
States are working from home largely
many organizations are finding that a
large part of what they do can easily be
done from home so in reality I think
there's not going to be a return to the
status quo ante I think we're going to
go to a new normal and those
organizations that adapt quickest
they're going to be very very advantaged
as we go forward now much of the focus
has of course been on the NHS and just a
few weeks ago the prime minister told
the nation that this was like a war
against an invisible enemy but many NHS
doctors and nurses feel that they've
been sent into battle with guns but just
not enough bullets such as the absence
of widespread testing and PPE gear that
was their fear back in the mid February
before the storm had even broken now as
we first approached the eye of the storm
that is still their fear as we found out
in an exclusive survey for channel 4
news of more than 280 NHS workers loud
and clear yet again is the lack of PPE
80% older so they don't feel they have
adequate personal protective equipment
to keep themselves all their patients
safe run out on every shift having to
reuse marsan visors a thin plastic penny
and a surgical facemask is a joke and
not up to World Health Organization
standards despite all those government
assurances that PPE is getting through
almost 2/3 of staff told us still sent
goggles and made face masks with the
laminator I packed my dad's mouth to use
these for building just in case we have
no faith in the NHS supplies so I've
tried to sauce stock privately one order
is due to be shipped directly from China
for visors and masks and without that
vital protection this is what they all
fear getting and spreading the virus of
themselves nearly a third responded that
they'd had covered 19 type symptoms and
gone into isolation I
had flu-like symptoms and a cough and
was advised to come in and I still have
symptoms after 10 days despite returning
to work and being denied a test by
management and the trouble is without
testing who knows whether they've
actually had it or whether it is safe to
return to work there's been much
criticism of the government this week
and in our survey 87% told us that
testing still wasn't freely available to
them the NHS organisations have told us
that over 30 million PPE kits have been
made available to frontline staff and
that new guidance for its use has now
been issued well joining me now a to NHS
doctors both of whom demonstrate the
danger faced by frontline medics in the
current crisis dr. Clare gelada caught
curve at 19 but has now recovered her
staff are working at the new Nightingale
hospital in the capital and dr. Sonia
Addis ara is on call today at her North
London hospital she has just returned
having been in isolation after also
showing symptoms of the virus from your
point of view what's next for your part
of the NHS Clare you first what's next
is bringing testing into primary care so
that we can at least start testing our
staff our community care staff our
primary care staff because at the moment
we're losing staff through isolation and
through possible illness so for us
hopefully that's what Thanks for me it's
not about what next for what should
already be happening and I think we need
to make sure that all healthcare workers
working in the NHS and in our social
care system have the adequate protection
and and then yeah I completely agree we
should be testing workers who get
symptoms of any contact for symptoms and
I'd like to see testing more wider than
that as well in the community as well
imagine a world where you actually have
all the testing that you need and you've
got your PPE kids but the virus is still
there we still haven't got a vaccine
what do you think the burden on the NHS
would look like then and can we cope the
biggest burden for the NHS is when we
have too many cases coming in and the
NHS becomes overloaded and then as
clement should I
aspects of care then get jeopardized
because of that people will continue to
get ill for other reasons over the next
few months and it's really important for
us in the NHS and that we the rest of
the service remains open and and that we
and that whether it's people's mental
health problems or women having babies
or people getting their cancer treatment
all these things need to continue and we
can't compromise caring there's other
areas either I mean there was an
argument even before this crisis about
the sustainability you know and and the
future funding of the NHS if the NHS has
to be you know ramped up to this kind of
almost warlike footing on a you know
perhaps permanent basis
how is it sustainable how can it be
funded how can we deal with it what
we're doing at the moment is we're
ramping services up in order to meet the
crisis that we've currently got you know
4050 of care beds that Excel isn't
something that's going to have to be
required for much longer but if if you
say fast forward
where will the NHS need care well I
think what we're seeing now is how
important it is to bring together the
various bits of Health and Social Care
primary and community care mental health
and physical health and I think what
we're gonna probably do and I'm very
optimistic is when we come out of this
we're going to have a much more
efficient and much safer and higher
quality NHS because with those bits that
we've been trying to change for decades
decades are being changed now in the
space of three weeks dr. Claire Gerard
Oh dr. Sonya I decided thank you very
much indeed
well afghani epidermolysis any virus
modeler any global health expert what
next for the corona virus and they will
all inevitably say America and the
frontline there is New York City I'm
joined now by Alicia Spiegel tell us
about the situation in the hospital
where you're working as a nurse so are
basically most of our units are now : 19
units it has taking over pretty much the
whole Hospital we stopped all of our
elective surgeries the emergency rooms
are swarmed and there are other
facilities that are running out of
supplies and all
running out of ventilators and
medication at this time I have enough
protective gear technically we don't we
are being asked to reuse our n95
respirators for a week we don't have
enough masks so we don't know if these
masks after one shift even work so how
do we know they're going to work for a
week they're supposed to be single-use
for each patient
I can hear your children in the
background there you are working mother
you're a nurse on the front now that's
fine that's fine you're a nurse on the
front line I mean you must be exhausted
yes yes so ships that are hard now it's
a lot we're working 12 13 hour shifts
not drinking not eating because I mean
you know we don't want to take the masks
off it is terrifying how long do you
think you can go on for like this me
personally I've every every shift I
leave I say I'm not going back and I
keep going I don't know mentally I I
don't know mentally and physically I'm
not sure but we have to do it and we
keep we keep showing up to do our job
you were probably too young at the time
but I don't know if you've talked to
colleagues about what it was like in New
York City after 9/11 is this as bad in
terms of dealing with the chaos and
casualties or is it worse what's the
comparison I was 16 when 9/11 happened I
wouldn't know I don't know how to
compare it I would compare it to a
chemical warfare almost in a way this
this is bad this is scary this is silent
you don't see it 9/11 happens you know
it happens in one shot
this is lingering and now they're saying
over here in the states they are doing
the
mandatory lockdown for another 30 days
it's not going to be 30 days this this
is going to last a few more months now
we all know what we want that next to be
a cure immunity of vaccine something to
liberate us from this seemingly
indefinite lockdown in our homes but how
imminent is that in labs around the
world scientists are racing to develop a
vaccine to halt the spread of the virus
here in Portland down there already
testing one on animals vaccines
developed by Oxford University and
Imperial College could be trialed on
humans in the coming weeks work like
this is happening in around 35 research
centers across the globe but even if one
of the trials is successful and approved
the challenge will be getting it out
there to those who need it
countries will be competing against each
other to get hold of a drug most
scientists agree a vaccine will only be
available at the earliest next year so
will we need to be in lockdown until
then or could we use existing medicine
to treat the virus an antiviral drug
used for Ebola and an anti malaria drug
are being trialed but we need more tests
before we know they can treat
coronavirus patients so back to where
this all began Wuhan in China people are
now slowly emerging for more than two
months of strict lockdown as new cases
have dramatically fallen will there be a
second wave of infections with the
reassurance of a vaccine still months
away the world will be watching closely
well to discuss what's next in the
search for a vaccine and joined now by
biosecurity expert dr. and gauzy arundo
who provides technical expertise on
infectious disease control to
organizations such as the World Health
Organization and Professor Robin shotted
from the Department of infectious
disease at Imperial College in London
he's leading a team there developing a
vaccine for the virus let me start off
with you Robin tell us where we are with
the vaccine so we're working very hard
to try and get our vaccine into clinical
trials by the beginning of summer and
together with the group in Oxford who
will be starting earlier than us that
means in the UK we have two candidates
that hopefully can start to impact on
this epidemic later in the year but for
those of us you know living in lockdown
which is you know almost the entire
planet you know we're impatient so we
want to know why can't be done any
sooner why you can't have a vaccine
let's say in the autumn if you're
testing it on humans in a couple of
weeks from now could you just explain
that to us please well totally
understand people's impatience and we're
impatient ourselves but you know
traditionally you have to bear in mind
that actually going from starting to
test human vaccines to getting to
something that has demonstrated to be
safe and works and gets a marketing
license can take up to three years so
we're trying to do this much faster than
it's been done before and it may be
possible that some of these vaccines
could be used in the winter before
they're licensed if they're shown to
have some degree of efficacy and that
would be faster than it's ever been done
before let me turn to you in Gaza or
under you dealt with the Ebola crisis in
Africa which is you know different beast
altogether I guess but if we don't get a
mass vaccine by the beginning of next
year do you think that that means that
we have to live in lockdown on and off
until we get that vaccine well while the
vaccine is definitely the endgame
meaning you know we won't have to do as
many extreme
or totally change our lifestyle until we
get the vaccine before then there are
definitely things that we can do we can
increase our testing and make our
testing more targeted so we're able to
find new cases isolate them immediately
look for their contacts and then make
sure that they're isolated if they're
sick or quarantined for the incubation
period then people will be able to go
back to work go back to school and this
of course will be after you know we get
over this peak so I I think that before
vaccine we will be able to still do some
epidemiological public health measures
to to control the outbreak but we won't
go back to normal without a vaccine but
essentially this is an abnormality
that's become the new normality will
continue you know off and on until the
beginning of next year you know I think
that's very possible I also think it's
possible for us to kind of see lock
downs in cycles where we lift you know
the lock down gradually and then
depending on you know the the the number
of cases and the NHL s capacity we may
have to do some types of lock downs kind
of in cycles another thing that we will
definitely have to keep doing is just
social distancing I think that really
needs to become part of the culture as
well as you know increase hand-washing
staying at home when you're sick there
are a lot of things that we can do
before the vaccine comes out to to try
to protect as many people as possible
Robin let me ask you if we do get that
vaccine that works and you seem to be
mildly optimistic that we'll we'll have
it you know at some stage at the end of
the year the beginning of next year it's
not the end of Kovac ninety now we're
never gonna have to talk about this
disease ever again because we'll have
the vaccine it will certainly be a
game-changer but I think there's an
important point to make actually even
before we get to a globally available
vaccine and that is you know along
similar lines to the Ebola outbreak in
2014 if either of the two vaccines in
the UK or hopefully both get an early
sign of efficacy they could be deployed
in the UK early in the winter so for
example we know that we could
manufacture
five million doses by early winter and
if there was an efficacy signal those
could be used to vaccinate vulnerable
populations and frontline workers and
that could actually have a profound
impact on the epidemic and if we get
that vaccine and it works will we ever
have to talk about Kobe 19 ever again I
think we will just like we talked about
the flu every year and we talk about you
know people get colds every year I think
that coronavirus eventually will be
throughout the world and will will
really have to make sure that the the
vaccine is within immunization schedules
that it's available to the most
vulnerable in our population so
definitely the elderly and other
populations as well and then we'll just
have to manage it as we manage so many
other diseases so let's face it we're
all so busy trying to live our new lives
and managing our fears we've had very
little time to imagine what things will
look like once this is over perhaps
everything from how we play to how we
work to how we interact with each other
this is existential stuff so time to
call in the poets George the poet in my
garden at a very safe distance of over 2
meters but first an extract from his
brand-new poem about this virus
coronavirus is a global crisis we're
gonna have to stay home to fight this
indoors with our phones beside us
literally left to our own devices I
don't you find it strange a second ago
our biggest stress was climate change
now we face a more immediate threat it's
more lives in danger tell me what went
through your mind is you you know walk
through empty London I was thinking when
this town is a ghost town it's like I
have never seen London so vacant in some
respects to know that we're all thinking
and worrying or questioning the same
things is it's surreal but there's
something a little bit charming almost
you know in the romantic sense about it
but at the same kiss that unites us
although yeah you know it's rare to have
so much of humanity on one Accord we
talked about this virus as a great
leveler but rich people are going to do
better are they right so already there
are differences in how people are able
to respond to the the fact that we can't
go to work right poorer families will
inevitably be more affected by this
there are pressures within overcrowded
households so these divisions won't
disappear because of coronavirus if
we're not careful that they could be
antagonized you talk about the
importance of telling stories and how we
survive this crisis through the kind of
stories that we tell each other what's
going to be the role of the art in all
this do you think well I see art as a
torch right shining a light on our
experiences I feel fortunate to be part
of an arts culture in this society that
really takes that role seriously Arts
Council England recently announced a 160
million pound package emergency fund to
provide relief for artists on an
individual level and an organizational
level
and that's the kind of thing that will
really prove a worthwhile investment a
social investment throughout this crisis
because arts is the space of
storytelling George the poet in my
garden on what next for our souls but
what about everything else geopolitics
geo-economics geo food global leadership
the big issues well joining me now a Tim
Lang who's professor of food policy at
City University he's worked as a
consultant to the World Health
Organization and also as a hill farmer
in Lancashire Gayle Smith was special
advisor to Barack Obama
where she helped coordinate the US
response to global health threats
including the 2014 Ebola crisis she now
heads the one campaign the global
movement to end extreme poverty and
preventable disease and Inger Anderson
is executive director of the UN
Environment Programme the Danish
economist and environmentalist also
spent 15 years working at the World Bank
well welcome to let me start with you
Tim Lange I mean you're an expert on
food this whole thing started with food
in a way didn't it because it started in
a wet market in China rather like some
previous diseases and now our obsession
is all about food can we feed ourselves
enough in this period of lockdown so
tell us about the importance of food in
all this well I think you're right it's
it's exposed the interconnectedness even
in very bizarre ways we don't yet fully
know but it's looking from the the gene
typing that it has come from trade in
wild animals being seen as exotic and
and as China has got more affluent it's
it's pulling power of that sort of food
exotica has then jumped but zoonosis
happen like this not as bad as this but
they happen so zoonosis ought to have
been on the agenda here in britain it's
already how its emerging this crisis
that ostensibly was about bodily health
is being turned into a cultural
dislocation around food a lot of people
across the sciences have been saying for
a long time the food system as it's been
developed in the affluent world is
apparently a miracle of just-in-time
delivery systems and astonishing in its
complexity and efficiency and you can go
into a supermarket and see just
impossible choice and yet it can break
very easily and that fragility is
something we've got to discuss not least
in relation to climate change but also
culturally I could turn to you I mean
what we heard Tim described there is
something that's become very familiar
everyone for themselves or a lot of
people for themselves in the
supermarkets of the world but also
countries acting for themselves
now you dealt with the American
administration's response but also to
some extent the global response to the
Ebola crisis a few years ago are you
worried that we're gonna we're sort of
turning in on ourselves as countries or
could there actually be some kind of
greater global response to this issue
that we're not seeing as far so far I
think we need and I hope we will see
that global response and here's why
you know Tim referenced our
interconnectedness our interdependence
that's a fact it's not an opinion and we
need to be much more deliberate about
that we're seeing for example now
countries all over the world scramble to
get the protective gear the medical
supplies that are needed that's grossly
inefficient and it's not working very
well
the second reason this is really
important is this really is a global
pandemic now it needs global cooperation
for the simple reason that a virus
doesn't stay in one place and we will
not have succeeded in this fight if it
is still raging in some parts of the
world and we're seeing already as it
moves around the globe we're seeing it
moving into countries in Southeast Asia
into Africa into places where there are
some capacity constraints and we need to
be focused on that and it's actually
it's to our collective benefit now you
dealt with the Ebola crisis which is a
really serious crisis back in 2014 but
where was the global response to that
did we learn any lessons from the Ebola
crisis and if we haven't learned those
lessons how to what extent are we not
paying the price I think we learned a
number of lessons from that and and we
would not have succeeded in bringing
that epidemic under control if there
hadn't been massive collaboration at the
international level I think the other
thing we learned and the world has
frankly not paid enough attention to is
that there are a number of gaps in the
system that enabled countries to prevent
detect and respond to these kinds of
global health threats there are holes in
the net if you will there is one place
where there is a lot of global
collaboration that's among scientists
and medical professionals are sort of
disease detectives are sharing data
across borders all of the time so that
we know more today than we did yesterday
let me turn to you in Anderson your
expertise is climate change is it not
possible that this extraordinary world
that we're all living in now under
lockdown you know has put the extinction
Rebellion crowd out of business this is
kind of what they dreamt of no more
planes you know decline in a dramatic
decline in production anybody who wants
to take a victory on this one on the on
the side of environmentalism is in deep
deep error because what we need to do
clearly is we need to first of all
understand where these disease is coming
from they're coming from our
mismanagement of nature they're coming
from us not understanding fully what
illegal what markets deliver what
illegal wildlife trade it there is an
agreement around this to to manage where
illegal wildlife strains
secondly on the biodiversity front we're
eroding over paving causing degradation
of where of biodiversity with
fragmenting biodiversity and we know
anybody that works on nature knows that
this is where we get this trance
transmission the zoonotic diseases it in
refer to the
these are really big questions and one
hopes that there are people thinking up
the right answers at the moment but at
the center we're all kind of just trying
to stay healthy you know and stay alive
you know in our own homes at the moment
so maybe this is not the time to have
these big thoughts but once the moment
is gone once this crisis is over
is there anything to suggest that we
won't just slip back to business as
usual well look it's my hope that
tragically this is going to be so costly
that it's going to cause leaders to
rethink I do think it's going to be
absolutely important and leaders here
for the from the people who vote for
them because we are all in our homes
trying to be safe and protected because
quite frankly global leadership has
failed to prevent and manage this in the
right way one of the big issues coming
out of this is not just a really deep
recession but possibly a global
depression worse some people are saying
then everything we saw in the 1930s so
you know surely that is going to be
perhaps an even greater cost for
societies than being exerted county by
the virus itself and the political
consequences of that if they're anything
like in the 1930s a pretty grim aren't
they yes extremely so and I think one of
the things we have to remember and all
of us are seeing this in our own
communities this virus strikes hardest
at those people who have the least
capacity to withstand it right there
world's most vulnerable we're gonna see
epic consequences I can only hope that
this is going to force leaders to wake
up and to step up and it's also going to
empower and enable citizens and frankly
the media to demand a different debate
and a different approach is the world
going to be a better place once this is
over yes or no it's gonna be a sad place
for a while but then it'll get better
Gayle I would agree with think it's
gonna be rough for a time but we're
gonna come out stronger and wiser Tim
yes if we push for it it all depends
whether we push for it Timlin Gayle
Smith in Anderson thank you very much
for coming on the program
some cautious optimism there to end on
it is called the novel coronavirus and
everything about our new indoor lives is
indeed novel unfamiliar unimaginable
just a few weeks ago but we're gonna
have to get used to this we're in this
for the long haul so we need all the
kindness ingenuity flexibility
imagination and humor to work around it
and let's face it for now we really
don't have a choice what a wonder
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the colors of the rainbow so pretty in
the sky are also on the faces of people
going by I see prayers waving hands same
how do you do they really say I love you
I watch them
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whoa and I think to us
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