﻿Hey guys and welcome to a very special video because today we’ll be talking to
Caitlin from leopard geckos london, who not only produces amazing looking geckos,
but she’s very ethical with her breeding, she doesn’t breed problematic morphs,
she provides a high standard of care to her animals, and she also holds an Animal
Activities License, which we’ll get into what that means for her and her animals in a bit.
So our first question today is How long have you owned leopard geckos, and when did you
decide to start breeding them? I purchased my first Leopard Gecko,
a little normal called Rio from a pet shop in late 2014. A few months later I purchased Squib,
a bell albino from a different shop. It wasn’t until 2019 when I found Glowworm, a
Glow Madness Tremper Albino poss Vermillion from the wonderful breeder Wabisaur that I
realised breeding Leopard Geckos was something I was interested in doing. A year and a half of
research and a few more gecko purchases later and I hatched out my first baby gecko.
How many geckos do you currently have? We currently only have about 30
adult geckos, including 3 pet only geckos and 2 Eublepharis angramainyus.
At the moment we have about 70 baby geckos growing out, which is where most of the work goes!
Okay, so as I mentioned a moment ago your business, leopard geckos london,
holds an Animal Activities Licence, how does this affect the way you run your business?
An Animal Activities Licence, or AAL, is essentially a pet shop licence. In the UK
if you are breeding animals for pets rather than as a hobby you need to have one of these! The
whole process took a few months and involved a lot of paperwork and even an inspection of my reptile
room to ensure all my animals are being kept appropriately. An AAL’s purpose is to make sure
that I am meeting the 5 welfare needs, but for me the main benefit is the amount of planning it
had me doing! I have to have plans for all sorts of disasters such as fires,
drought, and unexpected hospitalisation. Being a slightly anxious person, this actually really
helps with a lot of worries I used to have about the ‘what if’ scenarios. It also means
I have to run LGL as a business, pay tax and most importantly, abide by animal welfare laws.
So, what makes a breeder ethical vs unethical?
There are some obvious markers for an unethical breeder. Breeders who mass
produce with no care for correctly labelling genetics or who breed and sell animals with
obvious deformities or neurological conditions are the obvious ones.
The history of leopard gecko breeding and that of reptiles, in general, is enthusiasts breeding
with no input from the outside world. Before Instagram, the only people seeing breeders' setups
were other breeders. With social media, I think this is in the process of changing massively.
I get comments and feedback from people with all levels of experience, from breeders who
have been doing it for decades to people who don’t even know what a Leopard Gecko is.
This shift has it’s pros and cons, but in general I have seen overall husbandry
improving in the breeder community which is leading to a more ethical market overall.
I think it’s easier to define an ethical breeder than an unethical one. To me,
an ethical breeder does the following: - Has a specific vision in mind when pairing the
animals - what traits am I trying to reproduce and combine? What's my long term goal?
- Health and vitality - not breeding animals who are clearly unhealthy or poorly bred. Avoiding
morphs such as Lemon Frost and Enigma. - Transparency - am I completely sure that the
animals I am breeding are accurately labeled? Have I done enough test breeding to be 100%
sure there's no hidden hets? - Husbandry - can I adequately
care for and accurately risk assess the number of hatchlings I am expecting from my project.
- Market research - am I creating something that is adding to the population unnecessarily? Is this
morph something that already exists en masse? Does the market want what I am producing?
How can people avoid bad breeders? There’s two kinds of bad breeder,
the sort who doesn’t have any geckos at all, basically a scammer, and the sort who
mislabels and takes no accountability on the health and wellbeing of their animals.
The scammers are relatively easy to spot, I have a whole blog post I wrote a few months ago
as my photos along with those of breeders with a lot of black nights like Eco Geckos kept
being stolen and used to scam people with. The best thing to do is to ask loads of questions.
Any good breeder will be able to tell you about the lineage and genes the animal you're
interested has in depth, and will have info on the parents. It never hurts to ask for extra
videos and photos of the little one too! All breeders are leopard gecko nerds so generally
won’t mind sharing their wealth of knowledge as long as you catch them at a good time!
Oh also - check reviews! Places like Facebook and MorphMarket have review
systems which are great for ensuring breeders are accountable for the animals they sell.
Which morphs do you believe are unethical?
In the UK, the International Herpetological Society has banned
the sale of Enigma and Lemon Frost Leopard Geckos at their breeders' meetings. Enigma
Leopard Geckos have neurological issues which can drastically affect their quality of life.
The Lemon Frost gene is tied to causing cancerous tumours to pop up continuously on the animal's
body, giving them a very short lifespan. So some people may be wondering what is the
difference between a pet quality and a breeder quality leopard gecko?
A breeder quality gecko is one with known genetics and lineage, a pet quality is a gecko who has
unknown genes or some sort of imperfection which means it should not be bred from.
Sometimes it’s obvious and sometimes it’s very subjective! I bought a black night in
2020 who ended up developing skin cancer as a juvenile. The vet had to amputate her
leg but she is absolutely healthy now, but I consider her pet quality and don’t breed her
just in case there’s a genetic component. Often times female leopard geckos will almost be
retired from breeding at a certain age, how long do you typically breed a geckos for?
Industry standard is around 5 - 7 years. After this point the gecko will stop laying as many eggs
and may be slower to recover after each season. I have one girl this year, a sweet little vermillion
tremper, who has lost a lot of weight and even muscle mass from producing eggs this year.
I’ll likely give her next year off and decide from there if she gets retired at the ripe age of 4,
or if we’ll try breeding her again. So it’s quite common for breeders to use racks,
what constitutes a good rack setup vs a bad rack setup?
Before answering this properly, I’m going to give a bit of info on racks themselves.
Rack setups are something a lot of pet owners and novice breeders dislike, but they are genuinely
the safest way to keep a large number of animals happy and healthy. There is a balance between
space per gecko, and keeping up with the amount of turnover you need in ethical morph breeding.
If I used the optimal vivarium setup for every leopard gecko, I would struggle to keep up with
the cleaning involved and put animals at risk of disease and worse. If I reduced the amount
of animals I keep to make it manageable, I would no longer be able to keep up with the
current market needs and would therefore be breaking one of my earlier guidelines.
When keeping a large amount of animals, especially where there is high turnover (geckos coming in and
geckos being sold), biosecurity becomes a major player. Quarantining animals properly
and ensuring enclosures are regularly cleaned and disinfected is extremely important, and neither of
these would be feasible in vivarium setups. When disinfecting a tub, I can take it outside and use
more toxic chemicals such as vet disinfectant or even bleach mixes to completely sterilise the tub.
With a 45 kilogram vivarium, I am stuck leaving it where it is and risk exposing every animal
in the room to the fumes from disinfectant. So, how do I make racks more enriching?
I have been experimenting over the past year or so and have added loose substrate to my tubs.
So far, I have run into absolutely no issues whatsoever. I also use a lot of corkbark,
hides, and branches to give the geckos adequate climbing room. Additionally, I use
50l tubs (33l being standard in the UK) which is approximately the size of a 20 gallon exo terra
in terms of floor space. It’s not perfect and I hope to one day experiment with overhead heating,
UVB and even larger tubs, but it’s a start for me! Other breeders often have really good reasons for
not doing these things and I definitely don’t judge people for not doing so, but I genuinely
believe the future of breeding husbandry is in more naturalistic rack setups.
What kind of information do you provide a customer with in
regards to a gecko they have purchased? As a part of my own obsession with collecting
data, I keep really in-depth records on all my geckos and their lineage. Upon request,
anybody who gets one of my babies can have photos of them as they grew up
(they leave at a minimum weight of 20g and a lot of development happens before that!),
photos and information on their parents, genetic and lineage information, and even less solid
things like temperament and favourite food. And how do you ensure a gecko goes to
a good home? Because geckos are live animals and not objects
we always have open lines of communication with prospective homes. I ask questions and ensure
the buyer has done their research. We have a care guide with links to all the things we
recommend people buy and provide people with links to various science-based communities who can help
them. I also offer lifetime support to anybody who has one of my little ones as I think it’s
so important people feel supported! How do you ship geckos in the UK?
In the UK we have an amazing network of couriers, all licensed by DEFRA
who transport animals door to door in a special heated van. You pay a fee and your gecko is put
onto a monthly run. We aren’t allowed to ship through FedEx like our US counterparts.
And finally what is your 5-year plan for your business?
(e.g are there certain lines you want to explore? Improve the health
of captive bred geckos, etc). One of my favourite projects is my
‘Ignis Project’, where I am trying to create a strong tangerine gecko with bold markings. I’m
only on the first generation of this project but am thrilled with the results so far! In 5 years, I
hope to have made some really nice progress. In 5 years my Eublepharis angramainyu Ilam pair
will both have reached maturity and I will hopefully have some giant leopard gecko subspecies
babies! Working with this subspecies has been a dream for me, they’re just the prettiest geckos
with so much personality and intelligence. It’s been my goal for over a decade to work with
animals full time, and although I am not there yet, I think Leopard Geckos
London may be able to at least partially achieve that in the next 5 years.
Well thank you to Caitilin for this very insightful video, I always like to use my
platform for good, so finding an ethical breeder, who really cares about their is fantastic and I
am very happy to share Leopard Geckos London with you guys, I will leave all the links
below so be sure to check her out. But yeah if you’ve liked this video,
boop that like button, but thank you for watching and goodbye.