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>>> 41 PAST THE HOUR. A BIPARTISAN GROUP OF SENATORS
A BIPARTISAN GROUP OF SENATORS
WANT TO TARGET RUSSIA'S GOLD
RESERVES.
TO STOP RUSSIAN OLIGARCHS OR
RUSSIAN GOLD BACK WOULD
STRENGTHEN SANCTIONS ON RUSSIA
BY FOCUSING ON THEIR ABILITY TO
SELL THE GOLD RESERVES.
RUSSIA IS USING THE LOOPHOLES IN
U.S. SANCTIONS ON ITS CENTRAL
BANK TO OFFSET THE PLUMMETING
VALUE OF THE RUBLE.
JOINING US NOW, A MEMBER OF THE
INTELLIGENCE AND ARMED SERVICES
COMMITTEES INDEPENDENT SENATOR
ANGUS KING OF MAINE.
GREAT TO HAVE YOU WITH US.
>> SENATOR, THANK YOU FOR BEING
WITH US.
SINCE YOU ARE ON THE
INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE, LET'S
TALK ABOUT THE INTELLIGENCE THAT
VLADIMIR PUTIN'S BEEN RECEIVING
IN THE LEAD UP TO THIS WAR.
>> WELL, IT LOOKS LIKE HE HAS
MADE ONE OF THE GREATEST
MISTAKES ANY LEADER CAN MAKE,
WHICH IS TO INTIMIDATE THE
PEOPLE WHO ARE TELLING YOU
SUPPOSEDLY THE TRUTH.
THIS IS A COLOSSAL INTELLIGENCE
FAILURE, BOTH IN TERMS OF THE
CAPABILITY OF THE RUSSIAN ARMY,
BUT MORE OF THAT THAN THE
RESISTANCE OF THE UKRAINIAN
PEOPLE.
THEY THOUGHT -- YOU REMEMBER THE
FIRST DAY OR SO THEY WERE GOING
TO BE PEACEKEEPERS.
>> RIGHT, WELCOME TO LIBERATORS,
BROTHERS.
>> YEAH, LIBERATORS.
A MASSIVE UNDERESTIMATION OF THE
RESISTANCE.
YOU KNOW, MY -- ONE OF MY
FAVORITE SAYINGS IS IF YOU AND I
AGREE ON EVERYTHING ONE OF US
ISN'T NECESSARY.
MY SENSE IS THAT PUTIN GOT WHAT
HE WANTED TO HEAR BECAUSE, YOU
KNOW, HE HAS A WAY OF GETTING
RID OF PEOPLE HOTEL HIM THINGSWH
THINGS HE DOESN'T WANT TO HEAR.
I THINK IT HAS GOTTEN HIM INTO
THIS ABSOLUTE DEBACLE.
HE IS DESTROYING TWO COUNTRIES
RIGHT NOW.
>> RIGHT.
IT HAS GOT ALL OF US IN A WORLD
CRISIS WHERE HE IS THREATENING
THE USE OF NUCLEAR WEAPONS EVERY
DAY.
THE QUESTION IS HOW DOES HE GET
OUT OF THIS CORNER?
HE HAS BEEN DELUSIONAL.
HE STARTED A WAR THAT IS GOING
TERRIBLY.
EVEN IF HE KNOCKS DOWN EVERY
BUILDING IN KYIV AND RUSSIAN
TROOPS GO IN, THEY'RE GOING TO
BE FACING A RYEESISTANCE THAT EN
UP MAKING IT A BIGGER NIGHTMARE
FOR THEM THAN IRAQ FOR US.
>> HOW DO THEY HOLD IT?
>> THEY CAN'T HOLD IT.
>> HE CAN BOMB THEM INTO
SUBMISSION.
THIS COULD BE CHECHNYA IN 2000.
REMEMBER, THE RUSSIANS ENABLED
ASSAD TO DO BARREL BOMBS IN
SYRIA, PROBABLY ONE OF THE
GREATEST ATROCITIES IN RECENT
HISTORY, AND HERE WE ARE BACK
AGAIN.
THEY WILL DO SOMETHING LIKE
THAT, AND THAT'S WHAT WORRIES
ME.
WHAT'S HIS WAY OUT?
I DON'T KNOW.
I MEAN HE KEEPS MAKING DEMANDS
ABOUT EASTERN UKRAINE, CRIMEA,
PROMISES NOT TO JOIN NATO.
HE'S TRAPPED RIGHT NOW, AND I
THINK YOU ASKED THE RIGHT
QUESTION.
WHAT IS HIS OFF RAMP, AND I
DON'T THINK HE KNOWS.
>> WELL, IF IT IS CRIMEA, IF IT
IS EASTERN UKRAINE, HE WILL
OBVIOUSLY PUT IN THE REQUIREMENT THAT UKRAINE IS NEUTRAL, THAT
THAT UKRAINE IS NEUTRAL, THAT
UKRAINE DeMILLEE MILL TARITARIZE
I SEE NO WAY THEY COULD AGREE TO
THAT.
EVEN IF THEY AGREED TO GIVE HIM
LAND IN EASTERN UKRAINE, THEY
WOULD NEVER AGREE TO
DEMILITARIZE.
>> HE TAUGHT THEM NOT TO.
>> RIGHT.
>> ONE OF THE TRAGEDIES IS
UKRAINE WAS THE THIRD LARGEST
NUCLEAR POWER IN 1992.
THEY GAVE UP THEIR NUCLEAR
WEAPONS EXCHANGE FOR AN EXPLICIT
PROMISE FROM THE RUSSIANS NEVER
TO INVADE.
WHAT DOES THIS EXPERIENCE TELL
KIM JONG-UN ABOUT GIVING UP
NUCLEAR WEAPONS?
HE IS GOING TO SAY, LOOK WHAT
HAPPENED TO THE UKRAINIANS?
I'M NOT GOING TO DO THAT, IT IS
MY INSURANCE POLICIES.
>> HOW WOULD IT BE DIFFERENT IF
UKRAINIANS HAD NOT GIVEN UP THE
NUCLEAR WEAPONS, IF THE
UKRAINIANS HAD NOT TRUSTED THE
INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY TO
GUARANTEE THEIR SAFETY?
>> IT WOULDN'T HAVE HAPPENED.
THAT'S THE DANGER.
THIS IS A HUGE SETBACK FOR
NONPROLIFERATION.
>> A PIECE IN THE PUBLICATION-
DEFENSE ONE" ARGUES PUTIN MUST
BE GIVEN A WAY OUT.
QUOTE.
A DRAWN-OUT WAR IN EUROPE THAT
GROWS INCREASINGLY BRUTAL EACH
DAY IS NOT IN ANYONE'S INTEREST,
INCLUDING MOSCOW'S.
ULTIMATELY, THE AIM SHOULD BE TO
CREATE POLITICAL OPTIONS TO END
THE WAR THROUGH PRESSURE,
DIPLOMATIC MEANS AND OFF RAMPS.
AN INSTRUMENT INCENTIVIZE MOSCOW
TO SEEK COMPROMISE COULD BE TO
MAKE THE NEWEST SANCTIONS
CONDITIONAL AND LINKED TO
POLITICAL AIMS, SUCH AS A
CEASEFIRE AND A WITHDRAWAL OF
RUSSIAN TROOPS.
EUROPE AND THE U.S. SHOULD ALSO
BE CAREFUL NOT TO CREATE THE
IMPRESSION THAT IT IS OUT TO
REMOVE VLADIMIR PUTIN AS ITS
EXPLICIT GOAL.
EUROPE AND THE U.S. NEED TO BE
CONSTANTLY VIGILANT AND ONE STEP
AHEAD IN THINKING THROUGH
RUSSIAN COUNTERACTIONS AND
SANCTIONS, WHICH WE STILL MIGHT
WELL UNDERESTIMATE, ESPECIALLY
FOR EUROPE, WHICH IS QUITE NEW
TO THESE GEOPOLITICAL MILITARY
POWER GAMES.
PUTIN IS NOT.
THE STAKES ARE EXTREMELY HIGH,
AND THIS WILL LIKELY BE A LONG
WAR FOR UKRAINE.
EUROPE AND THE U.S. NEED TO
PREPARE ACCORDINGLY.
A CLEAR-EYED SOBER NECESSARY IS
THE NEED OF THE HOUR.
>> A CLEAR-EYED SOBERNESS IS THE
NEED OF THE HOUR.
AGAIN, THE TALK OF TRYING TO
THINK RIGHT NOW ABOUT WHAT IS
THE UNTHINKABLE, WHICH IS GIVING
PUTIN A WAY OUT.
BUT WHEN YOU HAVE ONE OR TWO
SENATORS RUNNING AROUND TALKING
ABOUT REGIME CHANGE, THAT'S THE
LAST THING THAT WE NEED VLADIMIR
PUTIN TO BE HEARING.
>> THAT'S HIS ULTIMATE FEAR, AND
THAT'S WHERE ALL HELL BREAKS
LOSE.
THAT'S WHY I AGREE WITH THE
COMMENT YOU JUST READ, THAT WE
HAVE TO TALK ABOUT UKRAINE, NOT
TALK ABOUT RUSSIA AND, YOU KNOW,
THERE ARE OPTIONS.
BACKING OFF ON THE SANCTIONS IF
THEY HAVE A CEASEFIRE, IF THEY
WITHDRAW THEIR TROOPS, IF THEY
STOP THE AERIAL BOMBARDMENT OF
CIVILIANS.
THERE ARE SOME OF THOSE KINDS OF
OPTIONS, BUT IF HE IS TALKING --
THE PROBLEM IS HE HAS ALREADY
LOST THIS WAR.
>> RIGHT.
>> BECAUSE UKRAINE IS NOW -- IS
GOING TO HATE RUSSIA AND PUTIN
FOR GENERATIONS.
>> YEAH.
>> SO EVEN IF THEY CONTROL A LOT
OF TERRITORY, THEY WOULD HAVE TO
HAVE A TROOPER ON EVERY STREET
CORNER.
>> THEY'LL KEEP FIGHTING, THE
UKRAINIANS.
>> THEY'LL KEEP FIGHTING
FOREVER.
SO HE'S LOST THIS WAR.
THE OTHER THING, HE'S GOT TO CUT
HIS LOSSES IN RUSSIA.
ONE ADVANTAGE A DICTATORSHIP
SHAS THATHAS
IS THAT THEY DON'T HAVE TO CARE
ABOUT PUBLIC OPINION AND THEY
DON'T HAVE TO CARE ABOUT
SANCTIONS UNTIL IT REACHES THEIR
INNER CIRCLE.
THAT'S WHY I THINK THE SANCTIONS
ON THE OLIGARCHS ARE SO
IMPORTANT.
RIGHT NOW PUTIN IS THE MOST
DANGEROUS -- I THINK THE MOST
DANGEROUS MAN IN WORLD HISTORY.
>> YEAH.
>> BECAUSE HE'S TRAPPED AND HE
HAS NUKES, AND PART OF THEIR
DOCTRINE IS THE POSSIBILITY OF
USING THEM.
>> GOOD GOD.
MIKE BARNICLE.
>> SENATOR, LET'S TALK ABOUT
PUTIN, A DANGEROUS MAN
CERTAINLY.
PUTIN'S IMPACT ON DOMESTIC
POLITICS.
I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE PRICE OF
GAS IS IN PORTLAND, MAINE, THIS
MORNING, BUT I BESS IT IST IT IS
THAN IT WAS TWO WEEKS AGO.
WOO DO YOU THINK THE REACTION IS
GOING TO BE, NOT ONLY OF THE
PEOPLE IN MAINE BUT AMERICANS IN
GENERAL WHEN THEY LOOK AT PUTIN,
WHEN THEY SEE THE HORRIFIC
SCENES OF ATROCITIES ON THEIR TV
SCREENS EACH AND EVERY NIGHT,
WHAT DO YOU THINK THEIR REACTION
WILL BE WHEN THEY REALIZE
FREEDOM ISN'T FREE?
>> IT IS FUNNY YOU SHOULD ASK
THAT QUESTION BECAUSE I WAS IN
MAINE OVER THE WEEKEND AND THE
MOST FREQUENT STATEMENT I GOT
WAS WHY ARE WE STILL BUYING
RUSSIAN OIL.
ONE OF MY COLLEAGUES PUT IT WELL
THE OTHER DAY.
LOOK, THE UKRAINIAN PEOPLE ARE
DYING.
HOW ABOUT WE HAVE TO PAY A
LITTLE BIT MORE FOR GAS,
HOPEFULLY ON A TEMPORARY BASIS,
BUT THAT'S THE REALITY THAT
WE'RE FACING.
WE CAN'T SUGAR COAT THE FACT
THERE WILL BE IMPACTS HERE IN
THIS COUNTRY OF THE VARIOUS
SANCTIONS THAT ARE BEING
APPLIED, PARTICULARLY ON THE
ENERGY SIDE.
BUT IT IS -- THE COMMENTS THAT I
HAVE GOTTEN SO FAR -- I MEAN
NOBODY LIKES THE HIGH GAS
PRICES, OVER $4 NOW, $4.20 OVER
THE WEEKEND.
BUT PEOPLE ARE REALLY COMMITTED,
I THINK, TO DEFENDING THE
COUNTRY OF UKRAINE AND MAKING A
CONTRIBUTION TO DO SO.