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- This is Lab Medicine Rounds,
a curated podcast for physicians,
laboratory professionals and students.
I'm your host,
Justin Kreuter,
the bow tie bandit of blood,
A transfusion medicine pathologist at Mayo clinic.
Today we're rounding with Dr. Phillip Hurst,
a resident in the division of anatomic and clinical
pathology here at Mayo clinic to discuss the residency
interview process.
So,
you know,
for some of our audience,
our students are really gonna
want to be listening to this episode,
but those of you that are faculty staff
doing interviews at your place,
I think this will be a relevant podcast for you as well.
So thanks for joining this today Dr. Hurst.
- Thank you so much for having me.
I'm excited to talk about this.
I love talking about this process with applicants and
hopefully others will find it helpful.
- Absolutely.
So you and I actually had had lunch earlier today and
started bantering about this topic quite a bit.
And I wonder if you'd kind of read it real often kind of
start into this and you know,
why is it so challenging to ask questions in an interview?
- Yeah.
And you know like you said after we talked about it today
at lunch,
I feel like it's,
it's,
it is complicated and it is challenging and there could be a
million different ways to answer this question.
But I think one of the things that comes to my mind
specifically in the residency interview process is that it
can sometimes feel very overwhelming and daunting to ask
questions,
you know,
multiple interviews in a day,
multiple interviews in a season.
And I feel like you do sort of get a little bit of fatigue
from asking questions sometimes.
And so I,
I think something that we talked about and something that I
think is a really good point is,
you know,
you can ask the same question to multiple different
interviewers in the same day and kind of coast with that a
little bit.
But I also something that I think is really important and I
wanted to point out from when I was interviewing was I often
felt like I would kind of go blank.
People would say,
oh, what questions do you have?
And I'd like freeze up on the spot cause you're nervous,
you're anxious.
And so I would start taking not a big paper,
but like a little note card or a post-it note and just
jotting down a few questions and I'd pull it out in the
interview and say,
you know,
I've got my, I've got my little cheat sheet.
Can I ask some questions?
And nobody was ever mad about that.
Nobody ever was ever bothered by the fact that I did that.
So I think that can be a really helpful tool.
And then my other,
my other point is that not every question has to be
specifically related to the program or the Workday or the
mechanics of the ins and outs of the curriculum.
You know,
interviews are just as much about the applicant feeling like
they're finding a place for them to work,
that they're comfortable in a nice environment.
They want to know that the people they're working with are
personable.
So you can ask questions about what people like to do in the
city?
what the hospital's like?
why did the consultant or why the attending or the resident,
why did they stay there?
So I think those are all good things to keep in mind when
you're working through which questions to ask.
- That's a Great point.
I like the idea of being prepared and filling out the sheet
and having those questions.
For those of us that,
you know,
like you talk about,
you know,
drawing a blank and things like that.
You just set a few of them,
but maybe can you kind of re kind of go over,
maybe,
you know,
what are a few aspects that somebody can ask about?
- Yeah, absolutely.
So I, I, there are a lot of resources for this online,
and so I don't really wanna,
you know,
beat the dead horse or reiterate things that people are
going to find in other places.
But, you know,
a lot of the information,
or at least the basic information about a program,
whatever specialty, you know, pathology or otherwise,
you're going to get from looking at websites,
you're going to get from talking to the residents in,
you know,
the meet and greets or the virtual lunches or whatever.
But like I said,
you know,
I think it's really important to get an idea of what life's
going to be like in this new place.
It's some place you're gonna live for three to seven years
or more.
And so I think,
you know,
don't feel like you can't ask
some of those more personal questions.
When I was a medical student, one of my mentors,
Dr. Jeffrey Boss at West Virginia university,
he was telling me about the stereotype of pathologists
being antisocial.
And he said,
that's just not true.
He said,
if anything pathologists are
a group of specialists that spend more time together than
most other medical specialties.
So you've gotta like the people you're working with.
So I think it's okay to take some time during your
interviews to ask questions about that.
What's what's life like within the workplace.
- What was your process when you made your list,
right.
That cheat sheet,
like the actual,
how or doing of formulating a question,
what was your approach there?
- That's a really good question.
And I,
and I think most of what I did,
most of those notes that I took on my little note card,
most of them came from the interview process.
I didn't necessarily sometimes,
but I didn't necessarily write those questions down in
advance of the interview.
I would go based off of the,
you know,
oftentimes there's a PowerPoint or a little bit of a talk
with the program director or somebody who gives you a little
background on the program, a background on the curriculum.
So I would sort of try to hone in on things
that stood out to me as different,
you know,
what was something unique to this program that maybe I
haven't heard of before,
because those are the easiest things to really ask about
because you are going to get different information than
maybe you'd get from a different program.
- So in order to kind of do good role modeling,
just like when I interview,
I usually kind of flip it around at a halfway point and ask,
you know,
are there any questions that that you have of me,
maybe I flipped this route now and Dr. Hurst,
are there any questions that you have for for me?
- Yeah.
I do have some questions for you actually Dr. Kreuter.
So you know,
you've mentioned what questions
can we prepare as applicants,
I'm curious to know what questions you've gotten in the
past.
Either ones that you think were really good and kind of
insightful,
or maybe even some ones that you thought were a little
questionable,
no pun intended,
but maybe something that applicants might try to avoid
if they're,
you know,
going through this process now.
- Yeah. So,
so the ones that stand out to me are the ones that,
where it's really,
I think what a lot of us learned in medical school,
the kind of open ended questions,
the ones that are really asking for a story after all,
that's what I try to ask for the, my interviewees.
Cause that's what helps me build an understanding of who
they are.
I think similarly,
things that are going to be open-ended questions for me as a
faculty member,
kind of let me show who we are.
you know,
as a program,
you know,
so the things of,
you know,
tell me about,
you know,
how has the program changed in recent years or you know,
tell me,
what's your,
what was your most favorite thing that,
that happened to you here at Mayo clinic
in the last a month?
Or you know,
what was the most surprising thing,
you know,
when you moved to Rochester, Minnesota, right?
Like all those things naturally lead to a story,
not a simple yes or no kind of question.
So I think those are the,
the better questions that I really kind of feel really happy
and joyful answering.
I think that not that not the bad questions,
but I think this kind of gets to your earlier point about
the kind of the complexity of it is sometimes they get
questions that really are not mine to answer.
And what I mean by that is,
for example,
you know,
although I'm on the interview team here at Mayo clinic for
residency,
I'm not in program leadership.
I am for my fellowship program,
but not for the residency program.
So, you know,
if you ask me about the,
you know,
what are the priorities for the residency program right now,
I'm not really necessarily up on what is those big steps,
as opposed to,
you know,
if you ask our program director or one of the associate
program directors, they'll be able to rattle, you know,
a very informative answer.
And so we usually when I get those,
I just kind of explain how well I'm not dodging your
question is just that I don't really know the answer to that
question.
I encourage you to,
to ask our program director or one of the associate program
directors,
usually I'll look on their list and point out who they're
interviewing with that is in program leadership that can
answer those kinds of questions,
because I think that is a lot for an interviewee to know who
is going to know about that.
- I think that's a really good point.
And in, in fact,
like you mentioned,
we talked a little bit about that earlier and it kind of
even brought some awareness to me even having gone through
this process of maybe how you could strategize a little bit
more on,
you know,
who you ask which questions.
But going back to your first part of the answer,
I think that's great.
Those are wonderful examples of kind of what I was getting
at about asking questions,
not necessarily related to the mechanics of the pro of the
program,
you know,
because a lot of those questions are going to be answered in
the website and by the residents.
So when you ask something a little bit more broad,
a little more personable,
it gives an opportunity to not only learn more about the
interviewer but create more of a dialogue.
So from your perspective as an interviewer,
what do you think makes for a positive experience?
I mean I know you just said
kind of that conversational aspect,
but are there any other things that you think either
interviewers in your position or applicants can do to sort
of help create that positive experience?
- I realize this is almost like a false thing but you know,
I think that as interviewers we need to do the best that we
possibly can to create a safe environment,
because I think for the interviewee to be in a place where
they feel like they can thrive
and talk about things honestly.
This is how we can possibly see our applicants
in their very best.
And I think that that's how we can get a true as possible
kind of read on how somebody deals with challenging
situations and things like that.
So I don't want to make the interview challenging.
I want the,
to make the interview very pleasant and I want to hear about
those challenges.
So I understand that you know,
you've,
you've been challenged.
And how did you overcome those challenges?
And I think to talk about those things, honestly,
because a lot of times, you know,
there's elements of failure in that,
like we need it to kind of be that safe place.
So the way I do that personally,
as an interviewer is I usually kind of set up and I pull out
my black book and you know,
they've got your notes here Phillip,
from when I interviewed you.
But yeah, I've got my little Jedi training manual here,
black book where I write down my notes and I tell the
applicants that
"Hey, you know, I'm here to, you know,
be your advocate.
I want to hear your stories so that I can advocate for you
as we're doing our, you know,
selection and making a rank list and such, and you know,
these stories, these are what, you know, really matter."
You know,
I can understand why somebody might be moved higher than
myself in a, in a rank order list.
If that person really has, you know,
dealt with some really challenging situations and managed
themselves and learned from those situations.
I think likewise, you, you mentioned on the applicant side,
I, I think I'd really want to encourage applicants to really
approach these interviews from an honest point of view,
it seems as if maybe somebody has trying to portray
something in some way. And,
and honestly it can come off just odd and weird at certain
times.
And I think that can make programs a little unsure about who
somebody is.
And I think that can hurt somebody in the long run for where
are they going to appear on that on that rank list.
Especially as there might be wild inconsistencies with how
somebody is behaving with one kind of interviewer versus
another.
And so I think just doing your best as an interviewer to
show up and just be your honest self and let,
let that speak for itself.
- Yeah.
I think that's such a great point.
And we did talk about that a little bit earlier too.
where not only,
you know,
could it potentially impact your rank,
but also let's say it didn't,
let's say you match it a program where you sort of portrayed
this version that you thought the program was looking for
and then you get in and now all of a sudden it's like,
well, you know,
did I find the program that was the best fit for me in so
much as the personalities I'm working with,
but then also do I have to continue to portray this version
of myself that I created for an interview that you know
maybe isn't compatible with who I am.
So I think that's paramount in this process is,
is being yourself and,
and letting other people see that personality because that's
ultimately going to help you find your best fit for you and
for the program.
- I totally agree.
I think that's a brilliant point to highlight.
- And I,
I do want to touch back real briefly on what you mentioned
about, you know, we, I,
I don't know if we mentioned that at the beginning of our
recording,
but you did interview me for a residency and it was one of
my favorite interviews.
It was impactful in my decision to rank male,
as highly as I did.
And you know,
coming from a position where I had,
you know,
a red, a red flag, I I'm using air quotes.
Cause I don't really like that term,
but I had a shortcoming and,
you know,
speaking to other interviewers,
you know when you're addressing these things,
you know be mindful that sometimes
these are tough things for people
to talk about or can be emotional.
And so creating a space where, you know, you're not,
you know,
making them feel inadequate or making them feel condescended
for, you know,
discussing these things can be very helpful.
And,
and you did just that you were very empathetic and patient
and you were willing to listen to my story.
And I think that's something that we can all take away,
from this is just the willingness to listen and you know,
hear what people are saying,
both interviewers and applicants.
- I think to highlight on that is that, you know,
I don't,
I don't know what to make of a red flag.
I think.
Yeah. You and I were talking about this at lunch.
Like you know,
here's,
here's something that I think,
you know, red flag you might code as,
you know,
some failure at some point,
but that doesn't mean anything about,
you know,
did somebody learn from that situation?
Did they change their process?
You know, that's the biggest thing.
I think that significant about finding.
Certainly we wanna find people that have gone through
challenging situations and I want to understand how do they
meet those challenges?
That's really important to me because to me
that's what makes a red flag either be,
you know a plus,
which you know honestly in your case,
Phillip right was a huge plus in,
in my book for you literally,
it,
it showed me that,
you know, you met a challenging situation,
you learned from it,
you've adapted to it.
And you're a much better person today for that experience.
As opposed to if when I had interviewed you,
you know,
you didn't learn anything from the situation,
you haven't changed anything.
You're not gonna change.
I mean that's what makes it okay.
We're, we're not, this is who we are as a person, right.
It makes the interview.
That's the point of the interview is to learn is, is,
are you that type of person I'm looking for,
not and challenges in and of themselves do not carry that
meaning of, you know, Delta plus or Delta minus.
- And I, and I think that's a great illustration of,
you know,
when you're going through this process,
if you've been offered an interview,
at least this is the witnesses is what I told myself as an
applicant.
If you've been offered the interview, they are,
the program already thinks you're qualified to fill a
position.
So you have to really just use that interview as an
opportunity to take advantage of the time they're giving you
to show them that you'd be a good fit for their team and to
be a good addition to their work environment.
So, you know,
you wanna make sure that you're being
as authentic as possible.
- Yeah, absolutely.
Give me these stories to fill my black book.
So, so Phillip, let me ask you, you know, is there a,
you know,
is there a tip you want to convey to all medical students
interviewing for pathology residency, is it to write,
thank you notes?
- The ever controversial point.
I, I will not tell anybody whether or not,
I think they should write thank you notes.
What I will say is that I did not,
I think I'm probably in the minority.
I did not write thank you notes.
I was told, you know,
it should not in any scenario affect your rank.
It shouldn't whether it does to some people I cannot pretend
to say, but I,
I decided to believe in the fairness of the system.
And so I chose not to, but you got to do what,
what makes you feel the most comfortable be true to
yourself?
But I guess,
I guess my overall advice would just be
in a lot of ways what we've already talked about,
you know,
be, be true to yourself.
And then when it comes down to creating a rank list,
I think there is important elements,
both in the practical aspects of finding a program.
You know,
you do want to make sure that the curriculum and the
fellowship opportunities and you know,
the way that the rotations are structured,
you want to make sure those are compatible with the way you
think you'll be the best learner,
but then you also,
I think there is a little bit of gut feeling or listening to
your heart involved.
And so use the experiences you have on your interview days,
use those relationships you built in the interviews to help
kind of guide you make that final decision.
- It's a, I think a brilliant advice for everybody applying.
And I think that's evergreen material as well,
or can continue to, to share out your,
with your words of wisdom in this podcast for future years
as well.
So thank you for rounding with us Dr. Philip Hurst,
talking about the residency interview process.
Thank you. For being here.
- Thank you so much Dr. Kreuter.
It was a pleasure.
- So to all of our listeners thank you for joining us today
We invite you to share your thoughts
and suggestions via email.
Please direct any suggestions to mcleducation@mayo.edu.
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please follow or subscribe until our next rounds together.
We encourage you to continue to connect lab medicine
and the clinical practice through insightful conversations.
And we wish you a wonderful pathology match.
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