>> Live from Barcelona, Spain, it's theCUBE.
Covering KubeCon CloudNativeCon, Europe, 2019.
Brought to you by Red Hat,
the CloudNative Computing Foundation and ecosystem partners.
>> Welcome back, we're at the end of two days, wall-to-wall
coverage here at KubeCon CloudNativeCon
here in Barcelona, Spain.
I'm Stu Miniman, my co-host for
two days has been Corey Quinn.
Corey, we've gone two days, it's five years of Kubernetes,
and everybody's been wondering
when are you going to sing happy birthday to
Fippy and the Kubernetes team?
>> Generally, no one wants to hear me sing more than once,
because first, I don't have a great singing voice,
but more importantly, I insist on calling it Corey-oki,
and it just doesn't resonate with people.
The puns don't land as well as you'd hope they would.
>> Maybe not singing, but you are a master
of limericks, I'm told.
>> So they tell me, most are unprintable,
but that's a separate argument for another time.
>> Alright, so, Corey this is your first time at KubeCon.
>> It is.
>> In CloudNativeCon, we've done some analysis
segments, I thought we've had some phenomenal guests,
some great end-users, some thought leaders,
>> We had some great times.
>> You need to pick your favorite right now.
>> Oh, everyone's going to pick their own favorite on this
one, but I've got to say it was,
it would have to be, hands down, Abby Fuller, from AWS.
Not that I didn't enjoy all of our guests --
>> Is it because you have AWS on your Lapel pin,
and that secretly you do work for Amazon?
>> Hardly, just the opposite, in fact.
It's that, given that my newsletter makes fun of AWS on a
near constant basis, whenever someone says
Oh, there's going to be a public thing
with Corey and someone from AWS,
half the people there are like,
Oh, this is going to be good,
and the other half turn ghost white and
Oh, no, no, this is going to go awfully.
And, I'll be honest, it's been a day now,
I still don't know which it was, but we had fun.
>> Yeah, so, Abby was phenomenal,
loved having her on the program,
I'm a sucker for the real transformational stories,
I tell you Jeff Brewer from Intuit,
there's been many times I do a show and I do like,
the first interview, and I'm like, I can go home.
Here we hear a company that we know,
both of us have used this technology,
and really walks us through how that transformation happens,
some of the organizational things.
They've brought some software in and they're contributing to
it, so just many aspects of what I look at in a company
that's modernizing and going through those pieces.
And those kinds of stories always get me excited.
>> That story was incredible, and in fact it's almost
starting to turn into a truth and labeling issue,
for lack of a better term, because this is the Cloudnative
Foundation, the software is designed for things that were
more or less born in the cloud,
and now we're hearing this entire series
of stories on transitioning in.
And it almost feels like that's not native anymore,
that's effectively something that is migrating in.
And that's fantastic, it's a sign of
maturity, it's great to see.
And it's strange to think of that, that in the terms of the
software itself is absolutely Cloudnative,
it's not at all clear that the companies that
are working with this are themselves.
And that's okay, that's not a terrible thing.
There was some snark from the keynote today about,
here's a way to run web logic in Kubernetes,
and half the audience was looking at this with a,
Eeee, why would I ever want to do that?
Because you're running web logic and you need to continue to
run web logic, and you can either sit there and
make fun of people, you can help them get to a different
place than they are now that helps their business become
more agile and improves velocity,
but I don't think you can effectively do both.
>> Yeah, Corey, anything that's over than 5 years old
why would you ever want to do that?
Because you must always do things the brand new way.
Oh wait, let's consider this for a second,
lift and shift is something that I cringe a little bit when
I hear it because there's too many times that
I would hear a customer say
I did this, and I hadn't fully planned out how
I was doing it, and then I clawed it back because it was
neither cheap nor easy, I swiped that
credit card and it wasn't what I expected.
>> Yeah, I went ahead and decided to run on a cloud provider
now my infrastructure runs on someone else's infrastructure,
and then a few months go by,
and the transition doesn't happen right, I was wrong,
it's not running on someone else's
infrastructure, it's running on money.
What do I do?
And that became something that was interesting for a lot of
companies, and painful as well.
You can do that, but you need to plan the second shift phase
to take longer than you think it will,
you will not recoup savings in the time frame you probably
expect to, but that's okay because
it's usually not about that.
It's a capability story.
>> I had hoped that we learned as an industry.
You might remember the old phrase, my mess for less?
By outsourcing, and then we'll,
Oh wait, I put it in an environment, they don't really
understand my business, I can't make changes
in the way I want, I need to insource now my knowledge to be
able to work close with the business,
and therefore no matter where I put my valuable code,
my valuable information and I run stuff,
I'm responsible for it and even if I move it there
as a first step, I need to make sure how do I actually
optimize it for that environment from a cost savings,
there's lots of things that I can to
change those kind of things.
>> The one cautionary tale I'm picking up from a lot of these
stories has been that you need to make sure the people
you're talking to, and the trusted advisors that you have
are aligned with your incentives, not their own.
No matter where you go, there's an entire sea of companies
that are thrilled and lined up to sell you something.
And that's not inherently a bad thing,
but you need to understand that whenever you're having
those conversations, there's a potential
conflict of interest.
Not necessarily an actual one, but pay attention.
You can partner with someone,
but at some point your interests do diverge.
>> Okay, Corey, what other key learnings or sound bites did
you get from some of our speakers this week?
>> There were an awful lot of them.
I think that's the first time I've ever seen, for example,
a project having pieces removed from it,
Tiller, in this case,
and a bunch of people clapped and cheered.
They've been ripped out of Helm, it's
oh awesome, normally the only time you see something get
ripped out and people cheer is when they finally
fire that person you work with.
Usually, that person is me, then everyone claps and cheers,
which, frankly, if you've met me, that makes sense.
For software, it's less common.
But we saw that, we saw two open-source projects merging.
>> Yeah.
>> We had, it was--
>> Open telemetry is the new piece.
>> With open senses and open tracing combining,
you don't often see that done in anything approaching
a responsible way, but we've seen it now.
And there's been a lot of people a little miffed that there
weren't a whole bunch of new features
and services and what not launched today.
That's a sign of maturity.
It means that there's a stability story
that is now being told.
And I think that that's something that's very easy to
overlook if you're interested
in a pure development perspective.
>> Just to give a little bit of a cautionary piece there,
we had Mark Shuttleworth on the program, he said
Look, there are certain emperors walking
around the show floor that have no clothes on.
Had Tim talking, Joe Beta, and Gabe Monroy on,
some of the earliest people working on Kubernetes
and they said
Look, five years in, we've reached a
certain level of maturity,
but Tim Hoggin was like, we have so much to do,
our sigs are overrunning with what I need to do now,
so don't think we can declare success,
cut the cake, eat the donuts, grab the t-shirt,
and say great let's go on to the next great thing
because there is so much more yet to do.
>> There's absolutely a consulting opportunity for someone to
set up shop and call it imperial tailoring.
Where they're going around and helping these people
realize that yes, you've come an incredibly long way,
but there is so much more work to be done,
there is such a bright future.
Now I would not call myself a screaming advocate
for virtually any technology, I hope.
I think that Kubernetes absolutely has it's place.
I don't think it's a Penesea, and I don't think that it is
going to necessarily be the right fit for every work load.
I think that most people, once you get them calmed down,
and the adrenaline has worn off,
would largely agree with that sentiment.
But that nuance often gets lost in a world of tweets,
it's a nuanced discussion that doesn't lend
itself well to rapid fire, quick sound bites.
>> Corey, another thing I know that is near and
dear to your heart they brought in diversity scholarships.
>> Yes.
>> So 56 people got their pass and
travel paid for to come here.
There's really good,
People in the community are very welcoming,
yet in the same breath, when they talked about the numbers,
and Cheryl was up on stage saying only three percent of the
people contributing and making changes were women.
And so, therefore, we still have work
to do to make sure that,
you've mentioned a couple of times on the program.
>> Absolutely, and it is incredibly important,
but one of the things that gives me some
of the most hope for that is
how many companies or organizations would run numbers like
that and realize that three percent of their contributors
are women, and then mention it during a keynote.
That's almost unheard of for an awful lot of companies,
instead they wind up going and holding that back.
One company we don't need to name,
wound up trying to keep that from coming out in a court case
as a trade secret, of all things.
And that's generally, depressingly,
what you would often expect.
The fact that they called it out,
and the fact that they are having a diversity scholarship
program, they are looking at actively at ways to solve this
problem is I think the right answer.
I certainly don't know what the fix is going to be for any
of this, but something has to happen,
and the fact that they are not sitting around waiting for
the problem to fix itself, they're not casting blame around
a bunch of different directions is inspirational.
I'm probably not the best person to talk on this,
but the issue is,
you're right, it is very important to me and it is
something that absolutely needs to be addressed.
I'm very encouraged by the conversations we had with
Cheryl Hung and several other people these
last couple of days, and I'm very eager
to see where it goes next.
>> Okay, Corey, what about any things you've been hearing in
the back channel,
hallway conversations, any concerns out there?
The one from my standpoint where I say, well,
security is something that for most of my career was
top of mine, and bottom of budget, and from day one,
when you talk about containers and everything,
security is there.
There are a number of companies in this space that are
starting to target it, but there's not a lot of VC money
coming into this space, and there are concerns about how
much real focus there will be to make sure
security in this ecosystem is there.
Every single platform that this is going to live in,
whether you talk the public clouds,
talk about companies like Red Hat, and everybody else here,
security is a big piece of their message and their focus,
but from a CNCF if there was one area that I didn't hear
enough about at this show, I thought it might be storage,
but feels like we are making progress there,
so security's the one I come out with and say
I want to know more, I want to see more.
>> One thing that I thought was interesting is
we spoke to Reduxio earlier, and they were talking about one
of their advantages was that they are quote
enterprise grade,
and normally to me that means we have slides with
war and peace written on every one.
And instead what they talked about was they have not just
security built into this, but they have audit ability,
they have an entire,
they have data lifecycle policies,
they have a level of maturity that
is necessary if we're going to start winning some of these
serious enterprise and regulated workloads.
So, there are companies active in this space.
But I agree with you,
I think that it is not been a primary area of focus.
But if you look at how quickly this entire,
I will call it a Kubernetes revolution,
because anything else takes on religious overtones,
it's been such a fast Twitch type of environment that
security does get left behind, because it's never
a concern or a priority until it's too late.
And then it becomes a giant horses left,
barn door's been closed story,
and I hope we don't have to learn that.
>> So, MultiCloud, Corey, have you changed your mind?
>> I don't think so, I still maintain that MultiCloud within
the absence of a business reason is not a best practice.
I think that if you need to open that door for business
reasons then Kubernetes is not a terrible way
to go about achieving it.
But I do question whether it's something everyone needs to
put into their system design principles on day one.
>> Okay, must companies be born CloudNative,
or can they mature into a CloudNative,
or we should be talking a different term maybe?
>> I don't know if it's a terminology issue, we've certainly
seen companies that were born in
on-prem environments where the
classic example of this is Capital One.
They are absolutely going all in on a public cloud,
they have been very public about how they're doing it.
Transformation is possible, it runs on money and it takes a
lot more time and effort than anyone thinks it's going to,
but as long as you have the right incentives and the right
reason to do things it absolutely becomes possible.
That said, it is potentially easier,
if you're born in the cloud, to a point.
If you get ossified into existing patterns and don't pay
attention to what's happening, you look at these companies
that are 20 years old,
and oh they're so backwards they'll never catch up.
If you live that long, that will be you someday.
So it's very important to not stop paying attention to what
the larger ecosystem is doing,
because you don't want to be the only person responsible for
levels of your stack that you don't
want to have to be responsible for.
>> Alright, want to give you the final word.
Corey, any final things, any final questions for me?
>> Fundamentally I think that this has
been an incredible event.
Where we've had great conversations with people who are
focused on an awful lot of different things.
There are still a bunch of open questions.
I still, for example, think that Serverless is being viewed
entirely too much through a lens of functions as a service,
but I'm curious as far as what you took away from this.
What did you learn this trip
that you didn't expect to learn?
>> So, it's interesting when we talk about
the changing world of OpenSource.
There's been some concern lately that what's happening in
the public cloud, well, maybe OpenSource will be imploding.
Well, it really doesn't feel that way
to me when you talk at this show,
we've actually used the line
a couple of times, Kubernetes is people.
It is not the vendors jested,
>> Internet of flesh.
>> There are people here.
We've all seen people that we know that have passions for
what they are doing, and that goes
above and beyond where they live.
And in this community it is project first,
and the company you work for is
second or third consideration in there.
So, there's this groundswell of activity,
we're big believers of the world can be changed if,
I don't need everybody's full time commitment,
if you could just take two percent of the US's watching of
TV in a single year, you could build Wikipedia.
Clay Sharky, one of my greats that I love from those
environments, we believe that the network and communities
really can make huge efforts and it's great to see tech for
good and for progress and many of the outcomes of that we
see here is refreshingly uplifting to kind of pull us out of
some of the day-to-day things that we think about sometimes.
>> Absolutely, I think that you're right, it has to come from
people, it has to come from community,
and so far I'm seeing a lot of encouraging signs.
One thing that I do find slightly troubling that may or
may not resolve itself is that we're still seeing
CloudNative defined in terms of what it's not.
That said, this is theCUBE, I am not Stu Miniman.
>> Well, I am Stu Miniman, you are Corey Quinn.
Corey, how's it been two days on theCUBE wall-to-wall
through all these things, ready for a nap or fly home?
>> I'm ready to call it a week, absolutely.
I'm somewhat surprised that at no point have you hit me.
And one of these days I am sure we will cross that border.
>> Well, definitely, I try not to have any video or photo
evidence of that, but thank you Corey, so much.
We do have to make a big shout out,
first and foremost to the CloudNative Computing Foundation
without their partnership, we would
not be able to come here.
And we do have sponsorship if you look on the lower thirds
of the videos you will see our headline
sponsor for this show has been Red Hat.
Obviously strong commitment in this community,
and will be with us here and also in San Diego for KubeCon.
Additional shout out to Cisco, Canonical,
and Reduxio for their sponsorship here.
And all the people that put on this show here,
it's a big community, our team.
So I want to make a big shout out to my boys here,
coming in I've got Pat, Seth, flying in from the West Coast
as well as the Tony Day crew Tony, Steve, and John.
Thank you guys, beautiful set here,
love the gimble with the logo.
Branding here, lot's of spectacle,
and we always say check out thecube.com to see all the
replays as well, see where we will be, reach out with any
questions, and thank you as always, for watching theCUBE.
(upbeat jingle)