Punishment of Cutting off Thief's Hands, Objections and Reality.
[Hassan Ilyas] The first question that I want to ask you today,
mostly remains under discussion among us
and especially those people who question Islam, they present this question
and Muslims are in no position to answer this question.
Allah (swt) has clearly explained in Qur'an Majeed that
"assaariqu wassaariqatu faqta'oo aidiyahumaa",
"Whether the thief is a man or a woman,
if they have stolen, then their hands will be cut off".
When a Muslim hears this verse,
he is highly shocked and disturbed that in the current times,
now, discussions are being held on the reasons behind crimes
and the world is working towards rehabilitation of the criminals.
And Islam says that hands of a thief should be cut off.
So, what answer should he give to this question?
He cannot say that it should not be done
as it has been stated in the Book of Allah
and also, he cannot say that it must be done
as it obviously, appears to be a highly dreadful kind of a punishment.
Today, my question to you is that how should Muslims understand this point
and how can they defend themselves
from the objections raised in the world in this regard?
[Javed Ahmed Ghamidi] First of all, you should understand your religion
because if you do not understand your religion
and you do not know what Islam is,
you are not aware of this fact that why Allah (swt) has given His Shari'ah.
So, you will compare that with the laws that exist in the world.
As this comparison is the comparison between two contrary laws,
so, due to this reason, in terms of its consequences,
it will neither be satisfactory for you nor will it be satisfactory for others.
So, the first and fundamental point to understand in it is
that state law is one concept.
This law is made taking the convenience of people into consideration.
If you notice carefully, a state itself, is created out of this convenience.
That's to say, are we crazy that we will create an order within ourselves
and create a state and establish a government
and give power to some people and give them this right also to rule over us?
This is based on convenience of the human beings that
on the basis of his consciousness,
a human being has also an ability to misuse his free-will and intention.
So, that is why, due to misuse of free-will,
violation of rights takes place,
atrocities are committed against life, property and honor of the people.
To stop all this, people have endured to create a government among themselves.
[Hassan] Okay.
[Ghamidi] So, it is obvious when this government has been precisely created
to stop violation of rights,
to stop atrocities against life, property and honor,
so, its jurisdiction is also the same.
The states frame laws in it.
In the current times, it is a good practice
that whenever these laws will be formed,
then, discussions, debates will be held on these,
to analyse their advantages, to view their objectives and after that,
make legislation based on the majority, through discussion in the parliament.
If there happen any changes or modifications with time or circumstances,
then amendments will be made in the laws also.
This is the state law. It should be exactly like this.
In a total contrast to it, there is law of Allah.
There is no relation of the law of Allah with this state law.
It is related to my pledge with Allah.
[Hassan] Okay.
[Ghamidi] That's to say, when I become a Muslim,
then after thinking thoroughly, I accept this fact consciously
that I have a Creator and I have pledged an allegiance with that Lord
that I will not act against His command.
That's to say, I commit mistakes under common circumstances, I am at fault.
But this is the meaning of accepting religion consciously.
What does Islam mean?
To surrender!
Syedna Ibrahim (A.S) has described it in a brief line that
"Aslamtu lil rabbil aalameen",
that's to say, what is Islam?
"I have surrendered myself before the Lord of the worlds".
So, to surrender oneself before Allah (swt),
to create a true, conscious relationship with Allah
and after that to maintain this commitment
that I will not act against the law of Allah, command of Allah
This is called Islam. We accept this consciously.
That's to say, after understanding and contemplating,
I accept this fact that I am pledging this allegiance to my Allah.
If you read Qur'an Majeed,
that it has been termed as a covenant at several places.
The ways in which Allah (swt) has dealt with the nations,
are also termed as 'covenants'.
The matter of Bani Israel has also been called a covenant.
So, it is the covenant with Allah (swt).
When Rasool Allah (pbuh) used to take allegiance for Islam,
it was actually the statement of this very pledge.
When the Prophet (pbuh) said,
"Take a pledge on my hand, considering me as the Prophet"
and it was only his right to demand it from us.
So, it was the declaration of this commitment,
"I will be supporting the Prophet (pbuh),
promising you, I take this pledge that I will abide by your commands
and my attitude will be "Sami'na Wa Ata'na (We hear and obey)".
This allegiance is right now pledged by every Muslim at the time of birth.
[Hassan] Okay.
[Ghamidi] After that, it is required that he acquires education,
understands it and consciously at some age, he should revive his Faith.
That's to say, he should accept his religion consciously.
So, the people who consciously accept the religion after understanding it,
their case is that they are not merely the culprits of the state only,
but beyond that, they are the culprits before Allah.
So, have you read about the punishments of the culprits
before Allah on the Day of Judgement?
That's to say, those people who choose to adopt rebellion against Allah,
those who stand against Allah,
those who insist on standing upon Kufr after receiving His guidance,
those who choose to perpetrate polytheism against Him.
So, you know that what punishments have been stated for them,
an everlasting hell!
The punishments you have mentioned are nothing compared to those.
Everlasting hell!
So, the same Lord who has established that court of justice,
on the Day of Judgement, has made this law
that if as a Muslim, after accepting the religion consciously,
you perpetrate a crime like theft,
then, it is not merely a punishment for theft only.
In fact, it is the punishment for perpetrating the theft,
after pledging allegiance to Allah (swt).
It is not merely a punishment for fornication.
It is the punishment for perpetrating immorality,
after consciously pledging allegiance to Allah (swt).
So, due to this reason, these punishments are harsh also,
these are exemplary also, it has been clarified by the Qur'an itself.
These do not have that purpose, which punishments by the state have.
In the state, you give punishments, you reform the criminals.
You make arrangements for their education.
All these tasks will be done by the Muslim states also
and these laws will be applicable under general circumstances.
But, those people who have accepted the religion of Allah consciously,
when they commit these crimes,
crimes against life, crimes against property, crimes against the honor.
These are the three fundamental rights.
When they will perpetrate these crimes against these,
if they do not have any excuse, then they are not worthy of any leniency.
In every respect, they have perpetrated that crime with complete consciousness.
So, then Allah (swt) says,
The punishment which will be given on the Day of Judgement,
prior to that, let they be made a lesson for the world by Me.
You read that Ayah in which the punishment for the theft has been stated.
It is not mentioned there that it is for stopping the act of stealing,
"jazaaa'am bimaa kasabaa nakaalam min Allaah".
After pledging allegiance to Allah (swt), it is actually a punishment also
for still perpetrating that crime,
and a torment from Allah (swt) on that person.
[Hassan] Okay.
[Ghamidi] Similarly, if you read about the punishment
for fornication in the beginning of Surah Nur,
so, it has been interpreted as a torment.
So, it is actually a declaration of the calamity from Allah on that worshiper,
who had belief in Allah, followed His Prophet (pbuh)
and after accepting that consciously, he then, perpetrated such a heinous crime.
So, that's why, comparing these with the punishments of the state,
comparing these with worldly punishments,
it is just equivalent to not understanding our religion.
[Hassan] Okay.
[Ghamidi] Hence, these punishments will be given to those,
who neither have any excuse in terms of the nature of the crime,
nor any excuse on the basis of their circumstances.
If the crime in terms of its nature
and the criminal in terms of his conditions, is not worthy of any leniency,
then a punishment will be awarded in that case
and it will be considered that
he had already accepted the religion of Allah consciously.
His life bears witness to that fact. If he does not fulfill all those terms,
he has any excuse in terms of the nature of the crime,
or some excuse depending on his circumstances,
or he has not had a level of conscious connection to Islam
then this punishment will not be given to him.
So, it is the punishment for those worshipers of Allah,
who after pledging allegiance to Allah,
perpetrate crimes of the theft or fornication on His land
or perpetrate any other crime.
[Hassan] Okay Ghamidi Sahib, presenting some scenarios before you,
I want to understand that under these conditions,
in your view, can the punishment of Shari'ah be given to those Muslims,
who have pledged their allegiance or not, in that situation?
One criminal is summoned before the rule of Muslims and that criminal says,
"Even if I am a Muslim, I made a theft because," for instance,
"my sister was getting married and I had no money,
and I was helpless" or
"I have been hungry for many days, so I stole some money from the shop".
So, now in such a situation, due to what reason, he will be shown mercy
or if punishment will be given, then, why will it be so?
[Ghamidi] You have stated a conditional case,
dozens of such cases can happen, in which, either the nature of crime is such
that a punishment should not be given in that case
or a harsh punishment should not be awarded.
In the same way, the circumstances of the criminal can justify no punishment,
You must have generally heard that
Syedna Umar (R.A) had suspended this punishment in the period of famine.
People explain that precisely in this way.
In fact, some thinkers also say
that the head of Islamic rule has the power to suspend the punishment.
It does not happen like this! Actually, those terms are not met.
So, the case you mentioned, it will also be inspected.
Some criminal has other circumstances also, these will be also examined.
Do you know that, at the time of punishment for fornication,
what questions have been asked by the Prophet of Allah (pbuh)?
That's to say, what are those queries?
Firstly, the nature of the crime must be determined completely.
That's to say, a crime has been committed at that level,
in such a way that its interpretation or explanation cannot be made now.
One aspect is circumstances of the criminal,
obviously in the case of theft, what were his economical conditions?
Under which circumstances, he has perpetrated this crime?
If his master or lord or his employer was committing any atrocity against him?
What were the circumstances that poor chap was facing at this moment?
What was the status of his economic condition at this moment?
Was he any habitual criminal?
Or did he commit it as a result of some instigation at this moment?
What was his age? Was he, actually, in his senses?
What was the mental state of his awareness?
Considering all these situations is necessary as well,
and at last, the most important point necessary to consider is
that what was his level of awareness about Islam?
So, I will come back to you with this answer
that this punishment is actually for the people like us.
That's to say, those who preach religion to people.
Those, who teach what is its right perception,
who preach people about the nature of allegiance to Allah.
So, it is obvious, what leniency could be granted in our case?
[Hassan] But Ghamidi Sb, we can say that we had no such awareness
and obviously, one may say anything to avoid punishment of theft.
So, what's the deciding factor?
[Ghamidi] His case is in the hands of Allah.
But when punishments are meted out in the courts,
then the conditions of the criminal are not viewed as per his statements
In fact, these are understood taking his past, his circumstances into account.
If a person used to offer Salah, he was pious, he used to remember Allah (swt),
all witnesses are available to prove
that he accepted the religion of Allah consciously.
So, then, he deserves the punishment.
[Hassan] Okay.
So, Ghamidi Sahib, please tell us that
global conscience is currently heading towards rehabilitation of the criminals.
In fact, debates are being held on the punishment of the imprisonment itself
and the capital punishment is also under discussion.
As we live in the world, a global village,
there are agreements with the countries.
Even if you also act according to those,
their views which have totally become globally accepted views,
if you backtrack from these,
then there can't be trade agreements also, communication can stop.
So, how can we convince global conscience that it is between us and Allah?
If we cut off hands, it is actually a punishment from Allah.
[Ghamidi] Just tell global conscience that it is not the state punishment at all.
That's to say, we have not fixed this punishment
for all the people living in our state.
It is for those people who have presented themselves as Muslims
while giving a pledge to Allah (swt).
Are the laws for armies in your state, common?
Why are not these common?
[Hassan] It's of a different nature.
[Ghamidi] The army acts have a totally different nature.
Those cases are not even given a hearing in the common courts.
Why is it not so?
Because to become a part of such a force,
a person has presented himself through his independent decision
in such a way that he is now bound by its discipline.
So, it is the result of my covenant with Allah (swt)
that I should take care of Salah, worship Allah, obey his religion consciously
and if I perpetrate immorality with this conscious acceptance,
and I am caught red-handed, or I am being proven to have committed it,
or I steal, then I do not deserve any leniency.
So, the first important fact which must be clear to all Muslims by themselves
and which must be clarified at global level also,
is that it is not the law of our state.
In our state, Muslim rulers are bound by it
that they give these punishments to those,
who have the true awareness of the religion.
So, in a way, you are interfering in our religion.
Rest, there are also the same laws for the general public in our state,
which are acceptable worldwide.
[Hassan] Okay Ghamidi Saab, one point of view is presented,
especially by the scholars that these are those punishments,
which unless and until implemented, crimes in the society cannot be checked.
So, do you also think that these punishments fixed by Allah,
and their context of a Muslim who had awareness of the religious obligation
and he still perpetrated it, does not deserve any leniency.
If these are implemented,
then crimes in the society can also be checked through their means.
[Ghamidi] Look, if a punishment can keep a check on crime,
then it is true to a very little extent.
To keep a check on crimes, completely different ways are acquired.
That's to say, what is the reason behind the crimes?
Why are people willing to commit a crime?
How are their economic conditions? How are they being educated?
If you keep on bearing children recklessly,
if you do not take any responsibility of their education and training,
if you disown children after their birth in such a way,
that someone is working at the cycle workshop,
and someone has been sent to some religious school.
So after all this, it is obvious that how can you reduce the crimes in the society?
So, considering economic conditions,
considering education, considering training,
and then after that, at the level of society,
doing an analysis to end the causes of those crimes,
all this is what is required to reduce the crimes.
After that, punishments and harsh punishments also play a role.
But it is obvious that such a role is available after taking all these steps.
It could never be facilitated without these.
[Hassan] Okay, Ghamidi Saab, please tell us that those organizations,
which are flag bearers of human rights, also claim that
the effect of such punishments is taking place
on the family and children of a criminal.
So, if you cut off hands of a person, then he is not able to earn livelihood,
his wife, children are also become needy then.
In a way, you have caused disruption in the society.
So, a punishment must have been given to the criminal
but it was given in such a way that it engulfed his family, his children.
[Ghamidi] If he was a true Muslim,
then, he should have always remained cautious not to commit this crime
and secondly, what is this argument?
When you imprison a person in jail for ten years,
then what does his children do then? What does his wife do?
The punishment of imprisonment is the worst crime
that has been committed against the humanity.
In this it is as if you make the entire human personality your slave.
So, here, whatever had to happen with him, it has happened.
If you are flogged as a punishment for immorality or a hand has been cut off,
then, anyway, it will become a symbol of a warning.
Before the world also, he will face it with humiliation,
with disgrace and he will strive to make efforts to stand on his own feet,
as physically handicapped people are also born in the world.
So, it is a temporary matter which gets over,
after which a person will adjust to start his life again.
When you deprive a wife of her husband for 10 to 15 years,
deprive children of their father,
should not these questions be raised at that time?