[Hassan Ilyas] Ghamidi Sir,
you have
in one of your conversations on TV said this
and you have been asked this question at different platforms as well
Nowadays, it would be in your knowledge
the new method of surrogate mother
which science has discovered
if
husband and wife
both together
the way a normal child is born
if it cannot happen
then in someone else's womb
the husband and wife's seed
is fertilized
and then a baby is born
you have about this process
with some limits and conditions
you held it to be lawful
a critique has come up on this
I would present its fundamental argument before you
and then we'll know your point of view
On this procedure
many different
eminent scholars of past
their opinions have been cited
and it has been said that
a woman cannot give her sexual organs
on loan
if she cannot give it on loan
then how can it be given in exchange for a price
as it were, for a surrogate mother
how can someone's womb be taken on rent?
Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) has also said
that the one who believes in the day of Judgement
for him it is not permitted
that with his own seed
to fertilize someone else's field with his seed
in the same way
it is in Surah Al-Mujadila
that their mothers are only those who have given birth to them
then one verdict of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as well
has been cited
and it is that
when He was asked about a slave girl,
a child was born to her
and someone else wanted to claim its parentage
then He gave this decision that
where the birth has taken place
only that will prove its parentage
In the same way
there are different sayings of the jurists
that if the slave girl has taken
her master's semen
within herself
and if it leads to birth
then its parentage would be proven only through that woman
My question to you is this
that what you said
that if the services of a surrogate mother are used
then she must be given the status of foster mother
All the things that I put before you
in that, however
the woman who gives birth to the child
In the eyes of God
in the eyes of God's messenger
and of the jurist scholars of the Muslim community
in their opinion too
only she will have the status of the child's mother
so how did you apply the concept of foster mother here?
[Javed Ahmed Ghamidi] The first fundamental thing that you must understand
is that
There are two type of things in Deen
One of them is in which
we have
definite and unequivocal commandments
that is, Allah ta'la has Himself in Quran-e-Majeed
His messenger at some occasion
has told this in a decisive manner
that this is lawful
or that is unlawful
in that
you and I cannot give any opinion at all
This is what is called Deen
that is, when from Allah ta'la's side
or from the side of Allah's messenger
that is because, Allah's messenger
is after all His representative
if any Command of Deen is delivered
that is, the legality of a lot of things
have been told to us in a definite manner
for instance, in food and drink items
in mutual relationships
or as we see in moral issues
so there it has been told clearly
that this thing is forbidden
or it has been told that this thing is permitted
in the same way there are some levels as well
such as some things are said to be favored
"This is a good thing,
if you follow it
you will be rewarded
or it will lead to betterment"
similarly, in opposition to this
there are varying levels of aversion
that you say
that this thing is absolutely forbidden
or you say that this is not liked
or you say that this is such a thing
which could only be tolerated in difficult conditions
So these are those things
in which Allah ta'la has
Allah ta'la's messenger has on a clear basis said a thing
Another aspect is that
the general principles of Deen
are to be applied to a new situation
In law as well
this thing comes under discussion
The state laws in our society
in them too
there is a concept of legal principles
that is, within a law
there are some general principles embodied
and keeping them in mind,
you give commands for those situations
for which the law does not say anything
This is what is called independent legal reasoning (ijtihad)
that is, in the terminology of Deen
that what we call Ijtihad
is precisely this
that is here we don't have any direct unequivocal command
Even when there is definite and unequivocal command
There could be a difference in understanding
but the reference there
is not our own point of view
[Hassan] Okay
[Ghamidi] There the status of reference
is given to a word from an Ayat or from text
There we are telling
that see this thing
in these words
on this occasion
in this manner
it has been said
[Hassan] Okay
[Ghamidi] Whereas what goes on over here?
Here it is so
that by keeping the general principles before you
you state a command
so in this
there is no problem in it
there could be many differences in this
Prior to this
you have seen
that by keeping the general principles before you
many people have given opinion about blood transfusion
In the beginning
when it was made known
that blood transfusions can be done
This too is a scientific thing, right?
that is, in olden times
it was not possible
[Hassan] Okay
[Ghamidi] Nowadays we have operations
if there is an accident
and blood is lost
then some other person's blood is transfused
and about blood
it has been written in the Quran-e-Majeed
that it is forbidden
it has been said, right?
that drinking blood is forbidden for you
then in that
it had to be made clear that
drinking blood is a different thing
and giving blood to someone
through a syringe
by injecting them
it is a completely different thing
now what is this thing?
this is also an ijtihad, right?
So in this too there were differences
The scholars gave some opinions
Many people called it illegal
during the first stage
but slowly there are changes in opinions
organ transplantation
When you transplant eyes to another person
when you transplant a kidney to another person
the kith and kin are donating their organs
You would have seen this
At present in our own country Pakistan
There are many hospitals
in which this very work is done
and the rules that are laid down for it
they are made
but, nevertheless
it was made legal
so on this too
many people still have concerns about it
You know this that
among our old scholars
Maulana Syed Abul A'la Sahib Maududi
in many things
keep an open mind
however, he too gave a rigid opinion about this
and said that no there is no question about organ donation
Postmortem became a legal necessity
in that matter as well
the same thing happened
so many things of this kind
became an object of debate
so I too
keeping this thing before me
in the matter of husband and wife
I gave this opinion
that the way in which you
for the nurture and care of your child
you seek other women to breastfeed them
There too the same thing happens, right?
Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) himself
in order to be fed milk
He was handed to a woman
Halima Sadiya
In the same manner
it was a tradition among Arabs
In today's world as well it can happen
that on some occasion
any
child who is a victim of an accident
and the mother
in that case too it can happen
So Allah ta'la has in the matter
has made it clear in the Quran
that if these woman are borrowed
now it is merely a matter of feeding milk
but the relation of mother will be established
[Hassan] Okay
[Ghamidi] And see that she has only been called a mother
now in this explanation of Quran-e-Majeed
that they are your mothers
ummhatukum minal riza
These are the words of Quran itself
Okay, now
the girl who is fed milk along with you
that is, one child
was taken up to be fed with milk
and along with him there is another girl child as well
She too becomes akhawatukum minal riza Your foster sister.
This happened, right?
so this Ayat that you have read
that your mothers are only those
who have given birth to you from their womb
How then does it correspond to this Ayat?
so therefore, these are ijtihadi matters
and my opinion is that
in them
one should not draw line of entrenchments
if some scholars
consider this to be illegal
then many scholars
also consider organ transplantation to be illegal
They have concerns about postmortem as well
and about blood transfusions as well
they say that
that it must happen only in extreme situations
all these things are under debate in our society
When new things come up
then there these debates take place
so I have given my opinion
and from them
the texts that you have read
there is nothing contrary to it
I have showed you through one analogy
the rest of them too can be compared in the same way
but I do not insist on my opinion
The ijtihadi opinion is stated with one's argument
if you understand it
then you can accept it
Many things that I told you
in the past one hundred years
have been accepted by the masses
During that time I have given these two new opinions
one is this
and another is that
that in case of emergencies
you can pray Salah in Jamaat online
in that too you can see
that a same kind of reaction has emerged
so let the world take a few more turns
just like the absolutely forbidden pictures
have now become widely permissible
you will see that
in this too my point would be understood
[Hassan] Okay, Ghamidi Sir
right now the point that you made
about your clarification
that it is a ijtihadi opinion
and
if Quran-e-Majeed has
about some matter
has not given a
direct statement or absolute command
then we look for
the nature of Deen and Shariat
the similar situations in it
and what is its opinion about them
and then we apply it in creative ways
so this concept of foster mother that you
for instance
used it to apply to that mother
who becomes a surrogate mother
so in this the question does arise
that
over there the child has been born
the process of its creation has been completed
and the parentage of the child is absolutely clear
the one who has taken up the burden of the child
her mother is clear
her father is clear
through her the birth of child has taken place
now the concept of foster mother in actual
is in order to aid in taking care or saving a life
however, here they are aiding in its creation
so by stating both of these things to be similar
if you have established an analogy
but ostensibly both the situations are different
[Ghamidi] No, aiding in creation
is not any crime
Allah ta'la
the rules that He has made
with respect to them
a doctor helps you
in the case of conception of a child
you know that these methods
have been accepted by all
that the conception will take place externally
and will be then put in the same mother's womb
[Hassan] The test tube babies
[Ghamidi] So according to Allah ta'la's law
the conception did not take place externally
So therefore
there are many things which are newly invented
it should be seen
that what we are declaring to be legal
whether it is against any principle of Quran-e-Majeed?
whether it is against any moral principle?
this institution of family that has been made
whether something can become a basis for its destruction?
So in my view
in this there isn't anything in it
that is problematic
due to this reason
I'm not in its favor at all
that apart from mother and father
if it is someone else then it shouldn't be permitted
This matter is feasible only between mother and father
that is, those who are lawfully husband and wife
who have been wedded
only with them it is possible
only for them it is permissible
that they can deal with this matter through test tube baby
only for them it is permissible
that some other woman's womb is sought
so only for this my opinion applies
and I have stated that
if other scholars understand that
this goes against any principle of Quran-e-Majeed
so they have the right to give their arguments
and people have the right to act on their advice
In my view transplantation of organs
is also permissible
In my view there is nothing disagreeable about blood tranfusions
and it is not necessary that
it should be only done when it is a matter of life or death
You can do it for mere support as well
Similar is the case with postmortem
there are other new things that will come up
What needs to be seen is that
whether or not it is a case
in which the rules made by Islam
or any moral principle is being disregarded
so in my view it does not do so
In some people's view if it does happen in a matter
then they have the full right
that they must talk about its prohibition
In such matters
the opinions which people
will understand to have more strength
more reasonable
then they can act upon that
[Hassan] Okay
and this tradition
that I read before you
Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) has said that
the person who believes in the day of Judgement
for him it is unlawful
that he must fertilize a stranger's field with his seed
[Ghamidi] This is an entirely different thing
It is obvious
in order to fertilize a stranger's field with your seed
at that time what was the way?
[Hassan] Adultery
So this is absolutely unlawful
In that there's no debate at all
It is regarded among the three biggest crimes by Allah ta'la
Quran-e-Majeed has clarified it at many places
so the point that is made somewhere
it will apply there
Now is there any principle that can be derived from it
so that it can be applied here
in some scholars' view it does
in my view it does not
and this is what I stated