JULIA DAVIS, FOR THE DAILY
BEAST, AND FOUNDER OF THE
RUSSIAN MEDIA MONITOR.
JULIA, REPORTING ON RUSSIAN
TELEVISION, WHAT DID YOU SEE ON
THE CHANGE IN THIS, AND SOME OF
THESE PEOPLE WERE SAYING FOR
THE WAR STARTED THAT THEY COULD
DO THIS IN THREE DAYS.
>> AT LEAST ONE OF THEM WAS.
ONE OF THE EXPERTS THAT SPOKE
OUT IN FAVOR OF ENDING THE
CONFLICT, THE SOONER THE
BETTER.
IT WAS A RADICAL CHANGE.
EITHER WAY, AND THEY'RE TAKING
QUITE A RISK WITH THAT WAY.
>> IT WAS THE PUNCHING BAG OF
SOME OF THESE PUNDITS AND
RUSSIAN TELEVISION.
THERE TO GIVE THE VIEW THAT
THEY COULD, THEN, TRY TO KNOCK
DOWN.
YOU COULD KNOW SOME OF THEM,
BUT WHAT CAN YOU MAKE OF WHAT
THEY WERE SAYING LAST NIGHT?
>> THEY WENT IN THE PUNCH BACK,
BUT PEOPLE LIKE ME, ARE THE
PEOPLE WHO HAVE DISAPPEARED
FROM HIS SHOWS OVER THE PAST
FEW WEEKS.
SO, THREE WEEKS AGO, I COULD
HAVE GONE ON, AND SAID EXACTLY
WHAT HE SAID.
I WOULD HAVE BEEN YELLED AT FOR
IT.
BUT, I WOULD HAVE BEEN ABLE TO
SAY IT.
THE FACT THAT IT IS A BIG DEAL,
THAT SOMEONE CAN SAY IT FOR 30
SECONDS ON RUSSIAN TV NOW,
SHOWS JUST HOW MUCH THINGS HAVE
CHANGED.
THEY ARE NERVOUS ABOUT
CONTROLLING THIS MESSAGE, SO,
VANCOUVER DON'T AND ANYBODY,
SAYING ANYTHING THAT DOESN'T
FIT THE PARTY.
>> WHAT ARE YOU FINDING,
FINDING OUT MOSCOW RECENTLY?
YOU ARE IN MOSCOW, JOURNALISTIC
PROGRAM, WORKING IN MOSCOW,
JUST GETTING STARTED, HAD YOUR
HOPES TO SPENDING A YEAR THERE,
HAD TO LEAVE VERY QUICKLY.
WHAT ARE YOU HEARING ABOUT WHAT
IS HAPPENING NOW, WITH THE
CONTROL OF INFORMATION THERE?
>> SO, IT HAS BEEN INTERESTING,
BECAUSE AT FIRST, WHEN THINGS
BROKE OUT, THERE WAS A FAIRLY
FREE FLOW OF INFORMATION.
OBVIOUSLY, THERE WAS A RUSSIAN
STATE CONTROL OVER THINGS LIKE
TELEVISION CHANNELS, BUT
RECENTLY, I HAD PEOPLE AND
MESSAGING ME ON INSTAGRAM, WHO
I KNOW WHO ARE OPPOSED TO THE
WAR EFFORTS, AND POST NEW YORK
TIMES REPORTING ON THE BOMBING
OF THE TURN AT A HOSPITAL IN
MARION POLL.
THEY ARE JUST SAYING, I HEARD
THIS WAS FAKE NEWS.
IT WAS IN INDEPENDENT NEWS
OUTLETS THAT SAY MOSCOW IS
BEING SHUT DOWN, AND YOU CAN
SEE OTHER INDEPENDENT NEWS
STATIONS PULLING THE REPORTERS
OUT OF RUSSIA, AND IT'S
BECOMING HARDER, AND HARDER, TO
GET GOOD INFORMATION ABOUT THE
CONFLICT, IN UKRAINE, RIGHT
NOW.
>> MOLLY, WHAT DID YOU FIND
ABOUT HOW THE PROTESTS ARE
ORGANIZED, OR WHETHER THEY ARE
GENERATED SPONTANEOUSLY, NOW
THAT THERE ISN'T A REAL
LEADERSHIP STRUCTURE FOR
PROTESTS?
>> BOTH PROTESTERS I TALKED TO,
AND PEOPLE WHO WERE INVOLVED IN
HELPING THOSE PROTESTERS ONCE
THEY HAD BEEN DETAINED, ARE NOW
SAYING THAT WHAT IS HAPPENING
IS UNIQUE.
I THINK SOME PEOPLE WOULD BE
SURPRISED TO HEAR, AT THESE ARE
SOME OF THE MOST ARRESTS,
INDICATING THAT THESE ARE SOME
OF THE BIGGEST PROTESTS THAT
HAVE HAPPENED IN RUSSIA.
BECAUSE, IF YOU SEE THE IMAGES,
THEY DON'T LOOK NEARLY AS LARGE
AS THE PROTESTS FOR NAVALNY
ABOUT A YEAR AGO, AND IN 2011.
THESE ARE SPONTANEOUS, THESE
ARE DECENTRALIZED, THESE ARE
BEING ORGANIZED AGAINST
TELEVISION CHANNELS, AND THESE
TECHNIQUES ARE BEING ABLE TO
EVADE THE CRACKDOWN ON THE
RIGHT TO ASSEMBLY IN RUSSIA.
>> WHAT WILL YOU MAKE OF THOSE
RUSSIAN PUNDITS WHO WERE SAYING,
LAST NIGHT, THE FACT THAT IT
DOESN'T SOUND LIKE THEY WERE
DOING A GOOD CHEER LEANING IN
THE WAY THAT LETTER PUTIN WOULD
WANT?
>> MY EXPECTATION, IS THOSE
PUNDITS WHO WERE DOING THAT
YOU'RE LIVING, BUT WHAT
VLADIMIR PUTIN WOULD WANT, WILL
NOT BE INVITED BACK ON THE
SHOW'S.
LIKE I SAID, THREE WEEKS AGO, I
WOULD GET INVITATIONS TO GO ON
SHOWS LIKE THAT, ESSENTIALLY,
EVERY DAY.
PEOPLE JUST LIKE ME HAVE BEEN
EXCLUDED FOR A REASON.
I SEE MANY PEOPLE STILL ON THE
SHOWS WHO I KNOW, AND I KNOW
WHY THEY ARE THERE.
THEY HAVE, COMPLETELY,
ELIMINATED ANYONE WHO DESCENDS,
AND I THINK KAREN WHO DISSENTED,
JUST A LITTLE BIT, SOON, WILL
DISAPPEAR FROM TV SCREENS.
>> JULIA, WHAT IS YOUR
ASSESSMENT AND THE PROPAGANDA
WALL IS RIGHT NOW, IS IT
STRONGER THAN IT WAS BEFORE THE
WAR STARTED IN UKRAINE?
ARE THE CRACKS IN IT?
WHAT IS HAPPENING?
>> THE PROPAGANDA WALL IS
HIGHER THAN EVER.
BUT, I THINK, IT WILL CAUSE THE
OPPOSITE EFFECT.
PEOPLE WILL START TO WONDER WHY
THINGS HAVE CHANGED SO
DRASTICALLY.
NOT ONLY IN THE TERMS OF
ECONOMIC DOWNFALL THAT RUSSIA
IS FACING, BUT, ALSO WHY, ALL
OF A SUDDEN, THESE ALTERNATIVE
SOURCES ARE NOT AVAILABLE, AND
HAVING GROWN UP IN THE SOVIET
UNION, I KNOW THAT THINGS LIKE
THAT MADE US WONDER MORE ABOUT
WHAT THEY WERE HIDING.
SO, I THINK THAT WILL BE THE
ACTUAL EFFECT OF WHAT PUTIN
WILL ACHIEVE.
EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE FROM WHAT
HE IS TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH.
>> JULIA, WHEN THEY WONDER
WHERE THEY'RE GETTING THIS ONE
NOTE STORY, WHAT CAN THEY DO TO
FIND OTHER INFORMATION NOW?
>> THEY STILL HAVE ACCESS TO
THE INTERNET AND THEY CAN DO
WHAT OTHER BRAVE RUSSIANS ARE
DOING AND THAT IS RISKING THEIR
LIVES AND FREEDOM TO PROTEST
AND WITH TIME, THERE WILL BE
MORE OF THEM TO MAKE A
DIFFERENCE.
FOR NOW, THEY STILL HAVE A WAY
TO FIND INFORMATION AND THERE
ARE OUTLETS THAT CONTINUE TO
BROADCAST IN RUSSIAN DESPITE
FACING FINES, PENALTIES, AND
BANS.
AND I THINK IT WILL MAKE A
PARAMOUNT DIFFERENCE.
>> MOLLY, WHAT DID YOU DISCOVER
IN YOUR REPORTING ABOUT HOW
PEOPLE ARE COMMUNICATING AND
HOW THEY ARE GETTING
INFORMATION DESPITE THE
PROPAGANDA WAR?
>> PEOPLE ARE VERY ACTIVE ON
TELEGRAM CHANNELS THEY ARE
SHARING USE WITH EACH OTHER.
OFTENTIMES, THEY WILL START UP
A PRIVATE CHANNEL SO IT DOESN'T
GET THE CENSORSHIP.
AND IF THAT ONE IS INFILTRATED
BY THE AUTHORITIES, THEY WILL
SHUT THAT WENT DOWN AND START A
NEW ONE.
THIS IS A VERY SPONTANEOUS AND
KIND OF HAPPENING PERSON TO
PERSON.
AND PEOPLE ARE STILL USING
VPN'S EVEN THOUGH THERE HAVE
BEEN ATTEMPTS TO SHUT THOSE
DOWN.
SOME ARE STILL WORKING.
PEOPLE WILL USE VPN'S TO ACCESS
THINGS LIKE TWITTER AND
FACEBOOK THAT AUTHORITIES HAVE
RESTRICTED ACCESS TO.
>> MICHAEL, WE SAW PRESIDENT
ZELENSKYY TODAY, ONCE, AGAIN IN
A STATEMENT DO IT TWICE.
THE SECOND VERSION WASN'T
RUSSIAN, AND HE WAS DIRECTING
IT DIRECTLY TO RUSSIAN TROOPS
AND THE RUSSIAN PEOPLE.
ABOUT THESE ATTACKS ON
HOSPITALS FOR, EXAMPLE.
HOW MUCH OF THAT WILL GET
THROUGH?
>> AMID A VERY MINIMAL AMOUNT.
THE PEOPLE THAT MOLLY
DESCRIBING, PEOPLE ARE
FOLLOWING ALTERNATIVE SOURCES
USING A VPN, THEY WILL SEE IT.
THE PROBLEM IS THEY ARE SMALL
MINORITY.
SOME PEOPLE WILL GO OUT ON THE
STREETS, IT WON'T BE ENOUGH.
SOME PEOPLE WILL EMIGRATE, IT
WILL BE DETRIMENTAL TO THE
RUSSIAN ECONOMY.
BUT THIS SITUATION IN WHICH THE
KREMLIN ESSENTIALLY COMPLETELY
CONTROLS PROPAGANDA,
ESSENTIALLY COMPLETELY CONTROLS
INFORMATION, CAN CONTINUE FOR
YEARS.
I AGREE THAT IT IS A UNSTABLE
SYSTEM.
UP UNTIL NOW, THEY AT LEAST HAD
THE ILLUSION OF FREE SPEECH.
THAT ILLUSION IS GONE.
BUT THEY CAN MAINTAIN THIS FOR
LONGER THAN YOU EXPECT THEY
WILL BE ABLE TO.
>> JULIA DAVIS, WHAT ABOUT WORD
OF MOUTH?
WHAT ABOUT THE PERSON WHO IS
USING THE SOURCES THAT MOLLY
TALKS ABOUT BUT THEN TELLS
OTHER PEOPLE, WHO DON'T HAVE
ACCESS TO THAT, THAT MUST BE A
DIFFICULT DISCUSSION BECAUSE IT
WOULD BE HARD TO PROVE TO THAT
PERSON THAT PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY
SAID THIS, OR WHAT THE REAL
TRUTH IS.
>> IT IS VERY DIFFICULT.
BUT I THINK THAT WHEN THEY
REALIZE THE MAGNITUDE OF WHAT'S
HAS CHANGED IN THEIR SOCIETY IN
THEIR LIFE, THEY WILL REALIZE
THAT, COMPARED WITH THE
MAGNITUDE OF WHAT PUTIN HAS
DONE, AND THEY ARE ON A SINKING
SHIP WITH THEM, I THINK IT'S
ONLY A MATTER OF TIME BEFORE
THEY START UNDERSTANDING THAT
THE PROPAGANDA IS ONLY THAT AND
START REALITY SAYING THE UGLY
REALITY OF PUTIN'S WAR IN
UKRAINE, IT WILL MEAN A LOT