Speers: Time to talk to the Deputy Prime Minister, Barnaby Joyce,
and he's the acting Prime Minister as well right now.
To take us there here was the Prime Minister in Washington
talking to SBS about climate change and the net zero plan he's working on.
Morrison: We're making a plan, and that plan, I believe, will address the concerns
that Australians have about such a big type of change. Change can be concerning.
And I want to give them a plan that enables them to go "OK, that's what they're gonna do,
I can work with that. I can see my future in that. I can see the future of my town, my region in that."
And that's the assurance that Prime Ministers, Deputy Prime Ministers, governments, want to give,
and that's the way through.
Speers: Barnaby Joyce, welcome to the program. Joyce: Thanks for that, Speersy.
Speers: Good to see you there. Can you confirm for starters, are you working with the Prime Minister now on a plan for net zero by 2050?
Joyce: Well, obviously the discussion is happening. It would be absurd to think that people are not having discussions,
but ultimately we have to know the process as well and my party room, the Nationals party room
is absolutely part and parcel of that and discussions will be taken back to that party room.
We look at it through the eyes of making sure that there is not an unreasonable loss of jobs or any loss of jobs in regional areas.
We've got to remember this is the area where we have the mining industry and this is the area where we have the agricultural industry
and it’s not just those farms, not just the mines, it is the towns that are attached to the commerce of those industries.
It is the hairdressers, the tyre business. These people also rely on the Nationals to make sure that we don't pull the economic rug out from underneath them.
If we look at what pulling the economic rug out looks like, then it is something that I'm sort of perplexed that there is not more discussion about it.
What's happening in the UK and Europe with energy prices, sixfold increases in one year. 250% increase since the start of the calendar year.
A few days ago 850,000 people losing their energy provider, and a real concern over there about their capacity as they go into winter
to keep themselves warm and even keep their food production processes going through and as quoted by The Guardian, so you don't think it is right-wing rant, that says total chaos.
Speers: They have a gas crisis in the UK and parts of Europe at the moment is the reason for all that.
Just coming back here, to your concerns about regional communities, are you seeking to have agriculture excluded from any net zero target?
Joyce: Well, I'm not going to go into the particulars of what - of any sort of discussions,
but what I can say is, it is whether the commerce of a town is excluded, whether the loss of jobs is excluded.
Making sure that we take people with us and we don't replicate the obvious chaos that is happening in Europe,
and we make sure that we keep not only our mining industry - because you've got to remember, fossil fuels are our nation's largest export.
If you take away our nation's largest export to affect them in any way, then you have to accept the lower standard of living.
Speers: Are you saying there should be no coal jobs lost, is that the bottom line for you?
Joyce: Well, not by reason of domestic policy. International markets - if people say the world is moving on from that,
you will know that because there will be no ships off Hay Point in Queensland, no ships of Gladstone,
no ships off Newcastle and you can assume when that happens the world has moved on,
but currently we have record sales at record prices and we have England reopening coal-fired power stations because they can't keep the lights on.
Speers: It is pretty hard to see how you get to net zero while protecting all the coal jobs, isn't it?
Joyce: Do you just go up to families and say, "Sorry, you don't have a job and that's it."
Go to the places where they spend their money, the clothes shops, accountant, the tyre business, the corner stores and say,
"Sorry, no more money in Singleton, no more money in Rockhampton.
We've taken away the money and it has affected Townsville."
You've got to be mindful of that, that is what a prudent government does. Of course if you get it completely wrong,
then the whole economy is rocked as it is in Europe and as it is now in the United Kingdom.
Speers: I want to be clear on this. As I say, pretty hard to see how you can agree to any net zero 2050 or any time
if you are demanding the protection of all coal jobs. This is the bottom line for you: No coal jobs lost?
Joyce: It is not the bottom line. As I say, I won't go to the particulars and I do credit your astuteness process of trying to see if I do.
What I can say - you would believe the world is moving on from coal, and if that's the case, there won't be any demand for the product
and of course, you clearly understand, the listeners understand that that is our biggest export.
If you start shutting down your biggest export, the Government has less money.
So when you want money for more pensions or the NDIS, schools, hospital, the ABC,
you have to accept that we've made a decision that we will bring in less money,
so there is less places for the Government to spend it on. As simple as that.
You can't just keep borrowing money and thinking that that's not ending. Everybody looks at it and economically says,
"Hey, guys, Australians, how do you pay us back?" What product are you selling the world that the world wants
and if we haven't got that product, we're in strife.
Speers: I'm trying establish what your position is here. As you say, the world is moving on.
Coal - the world will stop using coal at some point, do you agree? And how can you protect those jobs indefinitely?
Joyce: Well, let's say that that's - let's work that statement out.
If it does, people will stop buying it off us and that's the progression.
Speers: Shouldn't be you helping the transition the industry now and those jobs in those regions?
Joyce: That's part and process of anything. As technology moves on, I've got no problems with that,
but to make a statement, "oh, the world is moving on from coal today," it is just not right.
We have the highest prices and the highest volumes in the sale of thermal coal and as I said
because they've completely botched it in the UK unfortunately they've had to go back and re-commission coal-fired power plants to keep the lights on.
Speers: Don't you need to plan for the future? Isn't this your - your job, to help these regions adjust?
Joyce: That's why we went into the nuclear submarine contract, we plan for the future,
we make sure we do, but we do it with our eyes wide open, because we have to focus on the economy,
we have to focus on the capacity to bring in money, we have to focus on the reliance of the Australian people.
Speers: So is it your fear that setting a target…
Joyce: Billions and billions and billions of dollars of revenue and billions of dollars in royalties,
you have to make sure you don't just - if you are going to switch it off, you have to say to the Australian people,
as the Labor Party should, because they want to shut down the coal industry,
"This is how the books are going to work." They have to show the cost, they have to drill it out.
(cross talk)
Speers: This is what you're trying to establish now. Are you saying setting a net zero target would accelerate
the closure of coal, and is that something you're not willing to do?
Joyce: Well, there's - I suppose there are many ways to look at how you achieve a net zero target,
but I'm just telling you the economic facts. It's just arguing against the bleeding obvious that if you shut down our major export
which is fossil fuels, it is the biggest - our beef exports are less than 40 days,
40 days of fossil fuel exports. Your barley exports are less than three days of your fossil fuel exports.
It is like fossil fuels, iron ore, daylight, daylight, daylight, our Australian economy's completely different to the economies of Europe
which are exporting pharmaceuticals or motor cars or Boeing ...
Speers: It doesn't sound like you're very keen on this net zero...
Joyce: No, no, I'm not keen on one-line, glitzy statements by people such as Mr Albanese or Mr Bowen who don't... In
Speers: You’re in government Barnaby Joyce. Joyce: This is how we do it.
Speers: I appreciate that, but you’re in government. It doesn't sound like you are at all keen on anything that is going to hurt coal industry jobs?
Joyce: No, no, it's the little old bush accountant saying that lots of clients have ideas, but if you sit down with them and say,
"OK, that's your idea, let's prudently go about this because otherwise you are going to get yourself in more strife than the early settlers.
Speers: What about the farmers who are already doing pretty well out of soil carbon, including your electorate,
what is your view on carbon credits and the potential benefits for farmers?
Joyce: Well, look, carbon in soil is just a very good idea because it is how you increase the productivity, the soil retention,
the fertility of the soil and it varies. If you go out west - I tell you the truth:
If I want to get greater carbon sequestration, I should pull over that forest, and plant perennial summer grasses,
maybe Digit, or Baffle grass if it grew here, it doesn’t, Bambatsi or something because that absolutely sequestrates more carbon.
But if you were to suggest that, the environmental movement would lose their mind.
But it is a scientific fact so all of these things have moderations. I remember bringing this up with Penny Wong.
There is a scientific fact. There is a thesis on it, I can take you to the document...
Speers: Are you in favour of carbon farming? Are you in favour of farmers making a buck out of this?
Joyce: Well, you look at - well, it's not just farmers. Farmers are incredibly important, and I'm one. I was mustering cattle yesterday
and we managed to get two trucks bogged and they are in the yards at the moment.
It’s also the town, you take New England, 12% of my electorate are farmers, incredibly important, I'm one of them.
That means you’ve got 78% that are not and that 78% also needs to be heard
and you've got to understand the main street in Singleton, the main street in Gladstone, what's happening up there in Townsville,
what happens in Moura, what happens in Emerald, what happens in Muswellbrook.
Speers: You say there is nothing in carbon farming for them? Joyce: Yes, you've got to make sure you protect them.
See, a lot of carbon farming, if you just lock up areas, then of course they don't run - if you just going back to -
I don't know, range lands, carbon sequestration - the more you increase it, in many instances the more you have to develop the land.
For instance, in dairy country, about 16%, incredibly high. In the Western range country, it could be as low as one to 4%.
Speers: Doesn't sound like you're sold on… Joyce: High improvement.
Speers: Doesn't sound like you're sold on carbon farming as a great benefit for those regions.
Joyce: No, I am, but all these things are not binary.
They've got to take into account the temperance and understanding of what those conditions are.
I have no problems with carbon farming, I have no problems with biosecurity security offsets, but you say that's blanket.
Well you say, no you have to take into account what happens in the towns as well. You have to be mindful of your constituency.
Speers: And some of your colleagues are divided on this. We know there are those who are adamantly opposed to any net zero target…
Joyce: Yes. Speers: And there are those, we see some of them in the paper again, Michael McCormack, Darren Chester,
who, as long as regional jobs are protected do want to sign up to net zero. How do you bridge that divide?
Joyce: That seems like a perfectly plausible position. I've read the total quotes of Michael McCormack and Darren Chester
and they take into account exactly what I'm saying, the caveat of making sure we are looking after our people and that seems like an incredibly sensible thing to say.
Make sure you look after your people. You've got to paint this in pictures so people understand.
If I said the way we are going to have a carbon mitigation strategy in Sydney is to shut down three lanes of the Harbour Bridge
and shut down the Gladesville Bridge, shut down the M2 and M7 and I think we are there, folks.
You would lose your mind. You’d say that's outrageous. You get it. You've got to think of how it works across the board.
In regional areas we are actually reducing our carbon emissions, we're doing it. In your urban areas, they are going up.
We play this game before with the Kyoto Protocol where basically we used to own that, own the vegetation.
Then we wake up one day and we didn't own it and we didn't get paid for it either. We are cautious.
If you suggest what you are going to do in the cities to bring down carbon emissions we are all ears, we are going to listen to that as well.
Speers: Just on the divisions in your party though, Darren Chester has told a couple of colleagues, he has told me as well
that he is taking a break from the National Party at the moment, not quitting at this stage, but he’s taking a break.
He is fed up with you not reining in George Christensen and Matt Canavan with some of their comments.
What do you think of MPs taking a break from the party room?
Joyce: The National party room is the most democratic organisation in that Federal Parliament,
more democratic than the Greens or the Labor Party or even the Liberal Party.
In the past, a good mate of mine, Kevin Hogan sat on the crossbench,
these issues have happened before, but I will address the George Christensen thing.
Now, George Christensen is retiring from politics and I do talk to George,
but this idea that somehow you can just go up there and demand that he no longer talks or,
I don't know, put hobbles on him, gaffer tape his mouth up - that's not going to work,
and in a nation like - what Voltaire said, well, it wasn't Voltaire, it was - I can't remember...
Speers: Ok, we will leave that there. Joyce: I might not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Is that principle now gone? Speers: You have a chat with Darren Chester and try to solve his issues and concerns?
Joyce: We have a party meeting every Monday.
Speers: OK. A lot going on in the foreign policy space, the meeting of the Quad, the new AUKUS partnership.
You’ve in the past have described China as the greatest threat Australia faces.
Why is that and what should it be taking from all of these movements in the strategic sphere?
Joyce: Well, you always judge any person or country by their actions.
And obviously our job is to keep the freedoms and liberties of your children, your grandchildren
to the same extent that you had them, and it's not just the actions of China.
They go without dispute, what has happened in the South China Sea, hacking of computers, incarceration of the Uighur people,
access roads into India, incursions there, other territorial statements, the threats to Taiwan,
the people who have gone off the street just basically been whipped off the street in Hong Kong -
you know, of course we've got to be mindful of that and to ignore that is a foolish thing to do,
but the best way to bring about peace and have peace in our region is with a comparable deterrent
and it is not just for us that we need peace, Malaysians, Indonesians, everyone needs peace in this region.
Not just the Chinese becoming more overt, it is the Russians. You can see the actions of Iranians.
Australia has a job to do and first and foremost the role of government is to keep their people safe.
And we don’t want war. Australians don't want war. We don't want to go to wars,
especially the protection of Australian soil, so we need strong allies and the AUKUS gives that,
a re-investment in a platform, an interoperability that can keep people safe and keep us in a region of peace.
Speers: Final one, Barnaby Joyce, earlier this year you said you would fight for the Murugappan family to be allowed to return to Biloela.
You have been Acting PM for the past week. Few get that sort of chance in their lifetime.
What have you done in the past week to help with that fight?
Joyce: We also have a cabinet system of government and I've had discussions with previous ministers.
My views don't change. They surround the fact that the girls were born in Australia.
Speers: Did you raise anything this week with the minister? Joyce: Well, people know my views and...
Speers: You are Acting PM, did you express those views to the minister? He made a decision this week that keeps them out of Biloela.
Joyce: Look, I'm aware of the decision, right, and I'm not going to go into any discussions or otherwise
with what I might have had with ministers or not had with ministers, that's my right.
Once you start doing that, people will stop having discussions with you.
Speers: Barnaby Joyce, thanks for joining us this morning. Joyce: You're welcome, David.